Unthreaded
Pcar, I really don't think you can blame the insulation problem on the left or the greens. Concrete clad flats are notoriously cold and damp. They're also ugly as sin. The answer is not to pump more heat into them but to either demolish them and rebuild or clad them in something that solves the problem. Fault lies with either the authorities for not banning something they know is unsuitable or the company for fitting a banned product. I suspect the former. For that we can point the finger at sysems that allow claim and counter claims to rumble on for decades without a firm decision being made. We've become a society of ditherers. For that you can blame the left and the greens for bringing up endless pointless considerations. For councils and the public there is very little consumer protection.
The sprinkler issue is more clear. While an internal sprinkler system might not have prevented the exterior fire, it may have confined the fire to the first flat. I don't think any high rise above 6 floors should be without them, regardless of age.
The final issue is housing so many people at the public's expense. London and the cities round the country were in favour of keeping the doors open, both during the Referendum and our recent election. Therefore the cities need to pay heavily for the people that are the consequence.
TinyCO2
Jun 16, 2017 at 11:11 PM | Pcar
The initial Police Investigation will be into the cause of the fire, ie how did the fire actually start. Many fires start by accident, or as a result of carelessness, neither of which are necessarily Criminal.
The reason for the rapid spread of the fire, and subsequent loss of life, irrespective of the cause of ignition, may lead to Criminal Charges if a crime has been committed, also Google "Criminal Negligence" and "Corporate Manslaughter
I hope lengthy Prison Sentences do conclude Legal Proceedings, however,I am not anticipating an early conclusion.
golf charlie
@Roger Longstaff, Jun 16, 2017 at 11:45 AM
Grenfell Tower:In summary, flammable cladding was added to reduce thermal conductivity and stop global warming - as stated in the literature.
Unbelievable!
Good summary.
Unbelievable? No, left have always put politics above human life: Russia/USSR, Germany, China, Cuba..... Venezuela
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So, on the rather sweeping assumption that the early speculation has some merit, the problem seems to come down to waves of leftism.
First, the fashionable marxist architects of the 60s and 70s wanted to build tower blocks: people who opposed them were dismissed as reactionaries.
Then belief in power-to-the-community ends up with a non-profit company controlled by the tenants being in charge of serious stuff.
Next, greenery installs waterproof insulating cladding that was a flammable danger in itself.
To add wood to the fire Green blob then insists on highly flammable gas (isobutane) in the fridges etc due to save-the-ozone-layer greenies banning safe Freon.
Brilliant. Well done, the Left.
Pcar
@golf charlie, Jun 16, 2017 at 11:04 AM
Police said on Thursday that they had launched a criminal investigation into the fire.
Mr Plod, start here:
The landlord is http://www.kctmo.org.uk/ a Tenant Management Organisation and Kensington Borough Council.
http://www.kctmo.org.uk/ were responsible for approving the refurb contract, materials used etc.
However they were compelled to bow to the green-blob indoctrination to meet insulation standards laid out under the Blair Government's Decent Homes Programme. Saving the planet usurps saving humans.
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Maybe Corbyn should be having a word in the ear of his newest Labour MP for the area, who sat on the damned KCTMO for four years!
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btw Sprinklers left howling about would have made little difference as the building was burning from the outside in.
Pcar
Ad Hom vs insult Ah Twitter told me Big difference
"you're stupid, & therefore wrong" = Ad hom
"you're wrong, & therefore stupid" = Plain insult:
You are delusional = insult.
You are delusional therefore your argument is wrong = ad hom
"Ad hom is not a fancy word for insult." It means addressing the person's (qualities) instead of the argument.
stewgreen
Wonder if it was a Beko fridge.
https://refsafety.beko.co.uk/
It has come to our attention that in a very small number of incidents, involving certain models of Beko branded frost free fridge freezers, it may be possible for the defrost timer (located at the back of the fridge) to fail, overheat and cause a potential fire hazard.
Breath of Fresh Air
The fridge may have well used R606a as the refrigerant, this was rejected by the Auto industry as being too flammable but not by the fridge makers.
R600 is n-butane, R600a is isobutane, sold as Care 10. Boiling point is around -12C. It's highly flammable so the usual precautions of earthing etc. for handling these kinds of materials.
Once your fridge develops a leak of this refrigerant there is no cut off valve to stop the leak and once ignited you stuck with a jet of flames.
Breath of Fresh Air
Jun 16, 2017 at 11:45 AM by Roger Longstaff
Grenfell Tower:In summary, flammable cladding was added to reduce thermal conductivity and stop global warming - as stated in the literature.
Unbelievable!
No! Not on this site. :)
Robert Christopher
Jun 16, 2017 at 12:13 AM by Pcar
Your link to Tim Newman's article is too valuable to disappear into the bowels of Unthreaded, so I have created this discussion thread:
Grenfell Tower - Deadly Fires: Mismanagement, or just no managers present
Robert Christopher
Tiny CO2, I totally agree with everything you wrote.
I have refrained from pointing the finger of blame regarding this tragedy, as I think it is unseemly. There is a woman demonstrator with a banner on the BBC website this morning, which reads "Time to go Theresa. Tory cuts cost lives."
I cannot see how this tragedy has anything to do with Tory cuts, and I have nothing but contempt for that woman - even if she is correct (which she isn't) her making political capital out of such a tragedy is appalling.