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Discussion > I was Monty's Double

It shouldn't be English Lit grad against scientist in the studio says Monty.

I said: "my point clearly stands. A complicated (and complex) science needs years of training to even begin to understand it (like all sciences). Which is why it is ludicrous when English graduates pontificate about something they haven't got a chance of understanding
- Strangely that is the what the outrageous BBC situation is .. In the studio there are 2 people : the clueless Enlish Lit, humanities grad JOURNALIST..being unable to challenge the assertions of the climate activist scientist the producer has selected from the white list of the unbanned.

- So Ironically Monty has brought the discussion full circle back to BBC deliberately rigging the debate

3 simple questions for you Monty. Yes/No

1. You are disappointed that the BBC almost exclusively uses interviewers who are English/Humanities graduates and would insist that the BBC should select interviewers who are trained/experienced in scientific/technical matters ?
2. That is perfectly acceptable for the BBC to bring on Skeptical scientists like Lindzen, Curry, Pielke Jr, Christy etc. ?
3. That since he (mistakenly) thinks climate science assertions can only be challenged by another scientist, he would welcome the BBC/media giving airtime to a proper such debate, and condemn any scientist who refuses to debate a fellow scientist ?

That is a yes, yes & a yes is it Monty ?

Mar 24, 2014 at 12:13 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Monty, if you genuinely are what you claim to be, you should use your real name and then you might get some respect. As things stand you are just a troll who just deliberately disrupts threads with off-topic material, and even continues to do so when asked by the blog host to stay on-topic.

Mar 24, 2014 at 12:15 PM | Registered CommenterPaul Matthews

not one response Monty says
at 12.12pm when I had been typing for the last 15 mins , and posted at 12.13pm

Mar 24, 2014 at 12:16 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

I'll leave you with this. Imagine the BBC had a debate about climate change and had Richard Lindzen on the 'skeptic' side and an English graduate representing the 'warmists'. How would you 'skeptics' react?

We would react appropriately to the quality and substance of the segment. That's not a difficult question, and it's certainly not a "gotcha".

Mar 24, 2014 at 12:28 PM | Registered CommenterSimon Hopkinson

Hi Stewgreen
Why are you suddenly changing the debate towards interviewers rather than interviewees? Strange.

The scientific consensus on climate change, means that for there to be 'balance' on the BBC you'd need a whole load of PhD scientists against one. Given there are very few 'skeptic' scientists, you resort to people like Lawson or Phillips (ie humanities graduates with no scientific training). This is ludicrous, and I have spent quite a long time giving other scientific examples where this would be ludicrous (particle physics, genetics etc). So far, none of you has picked up this argument.

Thanks.

Mar 24, 2014 at 12:30 PM | Unregistered CommenterMonty

So you are unable to answer my simple questions
And choose to change topic instead Monty.
Please have a go at answering them.

(My post is on topic, your and Mcleod's argument is that there should only be the "Climate Scientist" and the interviewer in the studio, cos he/she can't be challenged by an EnglishLit/Humanities grad.. I merely pointed out that by banning the skeptic that is what you get anyway.. Anyway you are merely continuing your Fallacy : argument from Authority..which is bunk from the start)

Mar 24, 2014 at 12:36 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

We can talk about the Higgs boson if you wish Monty. While doing my PhD in theoretical physics I attended a semester of wonderful lectures on Quantum Chromodynamics by Professor Tom Kibble at Imperial. Who was surely unlucky not to share the Nobel with Professor Peter Higgs.

However my question was far less esoteric. Do GISS, BEST and RSS data sets show no statistically significant increase or decrease in the global temperature anomaly trend over the last 18+ years? A hiatus, pause or whatever you want to call it. A simple yes or no will do. With your qualifications I'm sure you're better than "but years x, y and z had a higher anomaly than 1998". Surely.

Mar 24, 2014 at 12:37 PM | Registered CommenterGrantB

Monty, you do know the "argumentum ab auctoritate" (argument from authority), which appears to form the basis of your entire argument here, is a logical fallacy, don't you?

Mar 24, 2014 at 12:38 PM | Registered CommenterSimon Hopkinson

Given there are very few 'skeptic' scientists

Yes, this is where the problem lies, Monty. All REAL scientists are sceptical. There is a disparity between science and climate scientists.
... you resort to people like Lawson or Phillips (ie humanities graduates with no scientific training)

Being an observational scientist (no?) you should have noted that Lawson, who heads the GW POLICY F doesn't dispute the basic physical premise of anthropogenic climate change, but rather he challenges policy responses.

I'm not sure how it is you've deviated so quickly from the attention to detail we'd expect from a scientist. What's your field again? Oh, I remember.. never mind ;)

Yes, I'm sarcastic, Monty. You make me this way.

Mar 24, 2014 at 12:46 PM | Registered CommenterSimon Hopkinson

Monty I have no time right now, but just a throw away response...

So you are saying you can model long period chaotic system to such a degree of accuracy as to base a restructuring of the global society?

Interesting. So why are you all still around? And haven't moved onto other things? If the models are so perfect surely you should be moving into other areas?

You have either modelled the chaotic system to perfection, or the model, because of the nature of chaotic systems, is a piece of .... sorry scientific decorum prevents.

Like comparing real life to GTA V. Looks good, makes an impression, keeps lots of people in employment, provides endless entertainment, but not really real life.

Job done? It isn't? Or it is?

And you compare climate science to particle physics? In your dreams mate.

Mar 24, 2014 at 12:46 PM | Unregistered CommenterJiminy Cricket

Part of the problem, as stewgreen points out, is that in any BBC discussion (and the idea of the BBC actually having any sort of proper debate is an intriguing one!) you are likely to have an arts graduate up against a scientist anyway. Presumably because the arts graduate in question is a BBC "journalist" and therefore can be expected to grovel to the climate scientist while hectoring any sceptic that happens to stray in that makes it all OK.
The big laugh is that half the time it's the pro-AGW speaker who is likely to be the arts graduate but again, presumably because they are "on-message" that makes it all right.
Monty, you simply don't understand why you all look so silly. And running away from the argument just makes you look as if you don't have an argument and you know it.
I should add that most of your replies on here so far have been directly from the Handbook of Cliché Rebuttals and have all the originality of an "I Speak Your Weight" machine. We can only take you seriously if you start sounding like a person and not a bot.

Mar 24, 2014 at 1:03 PM | Registered CommenterMike Jackson

Hi GrantB
Why choose 1998? What happens if you choose earlier years (actually, I know the answer....and so do you!).

I hope you don't cherrypick as much in theoretical physics.....

Hi Jiminy. Like you, I have little time now. However,
You said: "So you are saying you can model long period chaotic system to such a degree of accuracy as to base a restructuring of the global society?"

You do know the difference between initial value and boundary value problems? If not, there's quite a lot of literature. I don't need to know the short-term chaotic dynamics of a complex system if I'm interested in understanding its long-term evolution. IOW....it's irrelevant what the small scale behavior of the weather is like if we want to know if the seasons exist.

Thanks.

Mar 24, 2014 at 1:07 PM | Unregistered CommenterMonty

Yes he has run away , he won't answer my 3 simple questions at the top of this page

Mar 24, 2014 at 1:10 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Hi Mike Jackson
You said: "The big laugh is that half the time it's the pro-AGW speaker who is likely to be the arts graduate but again, presumably because they are "on-message" that makes it all right".

Rubbish. Most of the time the BBC used Myles Allen or Peter Stott or Brian Hoskens or similar. The 'skeptic' is usually someone like Peiser (sports psychology) or Lawson (PPE).

Mar 24, 2014 at 1:11 PM | Unregistered CommenterMonty

From the Ecclesiastical Uncle, an old retired bureaucrat in a field only remotely related to climate with minimal qualifications and only half a mind.

Monty. Your history merely demonstrates that you have had considerable success at following the money and that you now have compelling personal reasons to avoid asking whether your adherence to the warmist cause has any proper basis.

Mar 24, 2014 at 1:20 PM | Unregistered CommenterEcclesiastical Uncle

Sorry stewgreen for not answering your questions at the top.

My view is that if you want "balance" in a debate then let's have it! Let's have dozens of PhD scientists versus Lindzen, or Curry, or whoever. I note that both are 'lukewarmers' and completely accept the basic science behind AGW (like Nic Lewis and others too).

BTW...this means that you will all attack the the nutty swivel-eyed loons who regularly post here? Right?

I don't think there is a 'balance' on the BBC if you have a scientist versus an English graduate who doesn't have a clue about the science.

Thanks. And I must get some work done!

Mar 24, 2014 at 1:21 PM | Unregistered CommenterMonty

Ecclesiastical Uncle: No, I have had considerable success in being a scientist.
Thanks.

Mar 24, 2014 at 1:23 PM | Unregistered CommenterMonty

Monty - Why choose 1998? What happens if you choose earlier years (actually, I know the answer....and so do you!).

Good grief Monty, I didn't choose 1998, you did on the original thread. Let me quote you at Mar 23, 2014 at 10:39 PM | Unregistered Commenter Monty - "What hiatus? 2005, 2010 and 2007 were all warmer than 1998. Right?" That is such a ridiculous comment about a time series trend that I'll just leave it at that so the scientific community can see how a contemporary climate scientist addresses the issue of temperature trends. Professor Phil Jones is starting to look like a polymath.

I did choose earlier years in my post on this thread, trends from 1996 and 2000 to 2014 and asked a simple question - are these trends statistically significant? I say they're not. What say you? C'mon again, yes or no.

Mar 24, 2014 at 1:26 PM | Registered CommenterGrantB

Correction - I chose trends from 1996 and 1990 (not 2000) to 2014. I'll post them again for your benefit Monty -

1. GISS (Land/Ocean) - 0.106±0.111 °C/decade (2σ) 1996-2014 (18 years)
2. BEST (Land) - 0.223±0.240 °C/decade (2σ) 1996-2014 (18 years)
3. RSS (Satellite) - 0.114±0.125 °C/decade (2σ) 1990-2014 (24 years)

Does the fact that the lower confidence level is <0 mean that the null hypothesis of zero trend is contained within the full confidence interval (at alpha=0.05). If so, does this tell you anything about the null hypothesis? And the statistical significance of the trend? Is that what Professor Phil Jones was talking about some years ago? Did Dr Santer mention something about 17 years or not?

Any thoughts? Give us your best shot.

Mar 24, 2014 at 1:31 PM | Registered CommenterGrantB

a I've used three different examples on this thread (Higg's boson, genetics and a counter-example) and not one response (see above).

It's not my tongue that the cat has got!

Thanks.
Mar 24, 2014 at 12:12 PM | Unregistered CommenterMonty

Not quite Monty. I explained why CS is not like genetics or physics. (11:23 AM)

But in any case, who cares what a person's qualifications are if they talk sense about the subject they are talking about.

Mar 24, 2014 at 1:43 PM | Registered CommenterMartin A

Seasons? Unfortunate choice. Newton has something to say with that... of all the interconnecting rhythms of a multi-layered chaotic system that one is fairly easy to have as an input.

Perhaps chose a better one if you were rushed...

Hmm... Short-term? With a 4 billion year old planet. Please define short term. Precisely define it, because if you cannot then you have problem. You cannot define short term can you?

I see you didn't answer my point...

Mar 24, 2014 at 2:10 PM | Unregistered CommenterJiminy Cricket

Well it looks like Monty has packed up his bongos and shot through. Pity, he appears he might be a hiatus conspiratorial ideationalist (*) and this problem needs to be addressed in a rational manner.

(*) I get all tingley when I talk about the Psychology of Climate Hiatus Denial.

Mar 24, 2014 at 2:14 PM | Registered CommenterGrantB

From the Ecclesiastical Uncle, an old retired bureaucrat in a field only remotely related to climate with minimal qualifications and only half a mind.

Monty. While eschewing any claim to any expertise at any science, I have over the years, both socially and professionally, met scientists who have ranged from junior to senior. Examining my memories, I conclude that none of the more senior ever claimed success at being a scientist in the way you have; and regret, therefore, that your 1.23 pm declaration of success is so uncharacteristic as to be barely credible. Maybe, however, you are merely naturally bombastic. But in that case why should we believe that anything else you tell us is the strict unadulterated truth?

Also 'being a scientist'. But what sort - a conventional climate science scientist?

Mar 24, 2014 at 2:30 PM | Unregistered CommenterEcclesiastical Uncle

Martin A

> But in any case, who cares what a person's qualifications
> are if they talk sense about the subject they are talking
> about.

I think you do care. Anyone who is in any doubt that you would like us to believe that you are a highly experienced engineer hasn't been reading your comments. The implication is, trust me I'm an engineer, I know what I'm talking about (and I have no reason to doubt that you are indeed an experienced engineer). Many other times I've read people boasting that a supposedly large number of the contributors to the blog are "engineers" or "scientists" or some such to give their, often doubtful, opinions some extra strength. So asking who cares about a person's qualifications is silly - I've even been asked for mine. The point about these claims of experience is that it allows readers who have no relevant skills (and my guess is that I am with the majority there) to judge what contributors are saying. Argument from authority and all that...

In fact the only people whose status and qualifications seem to be unimportant if not detrimental to their credibility are climate scientists, the very people who know something of what they write.

Mar 24, 2014 at 2:31 PM | Unregistered CommenterChandra

Dismal reasoning/debate by Monty
Just a standard troll technique of avoiding questions and shouting others back.
He never did answer my 3 simple questions

- The arg of authority is summed by pointing out it was only the small boy who had the guts to shout "the king has no clothes"
... The BBC would have course banned him.

Topics need to be challenged.. It is the producers job to decide who to air to help in getting to the truth ..i'll post more on original thread.

Mar 24, 2014 at 2:42 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen