Unthreaded
I used to be British, but I'm English now. I won't stop being European if we leave the EU. I despise attempts to equate Europe and the EU. I do intend to return to England as soon as my hitch in Texas (where folks identify as Texans first, of course) is up. I find no place is perfect, and everything gets worse at the same time as everything gets better.
rhoda
David Porter
Which part of the phrase "typified by" causes you a problem?
And since you know pretty close to naff all about me, as your comment shows, at least give me some credit for making a reasoned decision.
As I shall do on June 23rd.
And I'm not sure what Brexit, the Movie has to do with my reply to Sandy.
Alan
The price of the wine was a consideration but a garden five times the size and a house twice the size next door to the boulangerie was an even greater attraction!
And oddly enough, in a reputedly "socialist" country I feel a lot more free than I did in the increasingly intrusive UK, which brings us back to the question of heavy-handed plod and over-mighty bureaucracy. I reckon when France compares favourably in both those areas it's time for the UK to take a serious look at itself.
Which is not an argument for Remain or for Leave before anyone tries to claim it is.
Mike Jackson
@Robert Christopher, May 15, 2016 at 8:24 PM
Sandy on May 15, 2016 at 6:11 PM
"For the British it's English/Welsh/Irish/Scottish then British then European a poor third. "Many from Yorkshire put their country first in the list, as do those from Cornwall and many other counties.
It is anti-EU, not anti-European, that is visible, but that is true in many countries of Europe, like Ireland, France, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Austria and Poland; even Germany is not devoid of the symptoms.
I'm from Northern Ireland and living in Scotland - a very different inward looking country. I, and most in NI, see ourselves as British.
Most in Scotland see themselves as Scottish. This is evident in many areas: RSPCA no, SSPCA; St John's Ambulance no, St Andrews; Church of England = C of Ireland, Church of Scotland is Presbyterian; even the poppy appeal is different.
Yes, anti-EU, not anti-European - EU has no Demos, thus no democracy.
I would strongly recommend Martin Durkin's Brexit the Movie - Vimeo.
IMHO, it is well worth an hour of your time.
Pcar
Mike Jackson/SandyS
I think you should both take a look at "Brexit The Movie" that Hilrary Ostrov pointed to in her 14th May 11,52 pm comment. As far as I remember there is nothing in there about immigration. Put your mind set to one side and look at the sceptical side.
And by the way Mike, if you emigrated from the UK because "here say" said some copper booked some one for clipping white lines or some one was fined for putting the wrong stuff in the wrong bin then you have my sympathy.
David Porter
Robert C:
Too right, I can remember a colleague on a European Committee who got very upset, if you called him German, rather than Bavarian. Likewise, The Netherlands, Holland and Dutch are not interchangeable.
Salopian
Sandy on May 15, 2016 at 6:11 PM
"For the British it's English/Welsh/Irish/Scottish then British then European a poor third. "
Many from Yorkshire put their country first in the list, as do those from Cornwall and many other counties.
It is anti-EU, not anti-European, that is visible, but that is true in many countries of Europe, like Ireland, France, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Austria and Poland; even Germany is not devoid of the symptoms.
Robert Christopher
SandyS:
I too, went to school with half a dozen children of Polish WW2 servicemen and/or refugees.
I don't think their parents are comparable with the current new generation economic migrants. Most actually fled Poland before the Nazi invasion, to escape the Russian invasion and subsequent genocides. The post-war iron curtain effectively exiled them and those that attempted to return mainly ended up being sent to the gulags by the Soviet regime as potential spies.
The current migrants can come and go as they please, so probably have a totally different mindset.
Salopian
Mike Jackson
In my case the part of the UK where I lived and worked wasn't home, and neither was Scotland the place where I grew up; perhaps looking through the rose tinted glasses of nostalgia.
Neil Diamond summed it up quite well
L.A.'s fine, but it ain't home
New York's home,
But it ain't mine no more
I must say that I find the inter-nation friction within the UK very worrying, and its anti-European derivative equally problematic. Whatever the result of the referendum a similar split to the Scottish situation will result, so I am happy to be out of it.
I think a lot of the EU migrants are as you say young and proud firstly of their home nation and secondly Europe. For the British it's English/Welsh/Irish/Scottish then British then European a poor third. I went to school with a few 2nd generation Poles whose parents stayed after WW2, slightly different but their parents, fathers mainly, were definitely Polish exiles, whether that feeling has permeated the current generation of newcomers I don't know.
SandyS
Mike Jackson.
So it wasn't the food then?
Alan Kendall
Excuse me, Mike Jackson, but can you can please explain to me what side of what argument you think the "leavers" are on the wrong side of with respect to the Poles?
For the record, I also went to school with second generation Poles in the 1970's, and see many more recent Polish arrivals. Every single Polish person I have ever knowingly met has been a good person. Man, Woman, and Child. I think this country is better because of them. [And the UK welcomed them after Polish EU accession, while Germany et al were busy trying to restrict such immigration.] I would not want Poles to leave the UK in the event of a "leave" vote being carried. I have no wish for them to leave, and see no given reason why they would need to. They all seem like most excellent people to me. Once again, you are not doing the "remain" side any favours, IMO, with what seems like vague insinuations.