Unthreaded
Tomo, of course nothing is 100% safe and everyone admitted that.
There are good reasons why the pharma companies demanded immunity from prosecution, not least that anyone who gets sick in the next 75 years might try to blame it on the vaccine and demand millions in compensation. Nobody can guarantee 100% that there might not be some side effect that takes years to develop. Governments agreed to take the liability burden or there would be no vaccines.
Until you give mass populations a drug or test people for a lifetime and preferably both, it's hard/impossible to know these things, but the same applies to almost every drug out there. They say that aspirin would never pass modern drug trials and many over the counter drugs are far from 100% safe. Only recently a woman died from an overdose of Lemsip - the key drug being paracetamol.
We don't know the long term effects of covid either. It's long been mooted that diseases can trigger other conditions. HPV we know about but there's growing evidence that basic viruses can trigger type 2 diabetes. It's a popular meme that being too clean causes asthma but more likely the sort of people with asthma didn't survive all the other respiratory diseases long enough to be diagnosed.
Nobody is saying that Big Pharma is innocent of everything it's accused of but like Big Oil, the problems outweigh the rewards. Why the fear of one and not the other?
TinyCO2
I didn't say intimately conversant - I had a brief exposure to a culture. I didn't invent the term "pass the parcel".
Travel by air is rather safe - but you seem to be saying that since 10,000+ 737s are flying with very, very few incidents we shouldn't be overly concerned when a Max comes along.
“We do not believe any group of men adequate enough or wise enough to operate without scrutiny or without criticism. We know that the only way to avoid error is to detect it, that the only way to detect it is to be free to inquire. We know that in secrecy error undetected will flourish and subvert”. – J Robert Oppenheimer.
75 years....
tomo
"I had a short stint years ago in aviation and the "convenient scheduled maintenance stop" pass the parcel game. There, the pilot usually has the final say"
I'm sure while you were surrounded with aviation colleagues with a lifetime of experience you think in your 12 months contracted position you became intimatelly conversant with the volumes of regulations involved in the aviation industry but as your colleagues would have told you it is not a "pass the parcel game"
The pilot will have a say if he picks up an instument issue on the pre flight check
but that is as far as it goes, he has a different skill set.
Your short stint in aviation coupled with your incessant criticism contained in the majority of your posts doesn't allow your mind to contribute a balanced and fair opinion on any subject. You come across as critical on everything, relax.
Have a nice day.
martyn
So... if Boeing took the same attitude as Pfizer?
The FAA having been caught with its pants down and is postpriori-ing + CYA-ing away like billy-o. I'm well aware of aviation safety - the absolute necessity of having an independent + competent regulator seems to have to be re-learned periodically. As I understand it the 737 MAX 10 variant is still struggling to certify and the 777x also has some woes.
I had a short stint years ago in aviation and the "convenient scheduled maintenance stop" pass the parcel game. There, the pilot usually has the final say - and that would translate in the case of Covid to the clinicians who have I'd assert been largely ignored out on the wards...
That said - the medicine regulators, especially in the trillion dollar (and globally dominant) US industry look to be monumentally compromised, my opinion, but I believe that assertion is supported by independently verifiable data.
Why would you insist on legal immunity and a 75 year embargo on data if your product is 95%+ effective and "100%" safe? Nothing in life is 100% safe - but perhaps if the risks were borne by say insurance companies or liability were assumed by the manufacturer then we'd have a far better picture of what's going on? That would obviously open the door to legal predators.
Repeat - as it stands no liability and a 75 year embargo on data is a farce. A better deal could've been done - on the tracking of efficacy, the recording of bad outcomes and a capped compo scheme.
I am just done with the MSM and political parties vs. clinical outcomes...
War time trials?
tomo
"The Boeing 737 Max was safe until it wasn't - isn't a poor analogy I feel"
Everything is safe until a gremlin or two works through the system including the 25000 commercial aircraft currently in the global fleet and some of those are still flying after decades and decades of use. Aircraft gremlin issues are identified pretty rapid. A few with serious defects are grounded immediately but where possible overcome with a quick fix to keep the planes in the air until a permenent fix is developed and incorporated with the next convenient scheduled maintenance stop. The 737 Max was a serious exception to the rule and took some time to return to the sky.
As for the 11 billion Pfizer vaccine shots already distributed and injected I would expect some unfortunate person to have a reaction to some degree somewhere but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it and it wouldn't stop me having another pfizer booster. Besides you can't compare war time trials of 70 or 80 years ago with current peacetime trails in the same breath. Relax
martyn
Strangely enough the https://fightforua.org/ advert came up when I was trying to relax a bit - which is why it got me going....
I'll grant you that Twitter does little to keep my blood pressure down but even if one partitions Twitter (different accounts for different subject areas and work) - the goons presently running that show can't resist stuffing "outrage du jour" into your feed. I've found Twitter useful for keeping up with work related topics for years.
- it's now getting more ridiculous than I can recall.
I'm curious about the Pfizer docs as an acquaintance was a very senior UK public health academic and we've had conversations where the state of medical trials and novel drugs ("war stories") has been a topic - the elaboration of flat out malpractice and wholesale fraud was dispiriting. There are doubtless well intentioned and competent folk providing life enhancing medications in the pharma business - but they also have a load of clever, unprincipled grasping scoundrels mercilessly playing the system. 75 years is a long time ....
This Reuters piece on the Pfizer documents is as skewed as most of the the daft claims it's trying to debunk - both swerve context to indulge in narrow advocacy. Vaccine development is like other human endeavors - there are successes and failures - but the pharma companies have their hands on the scales of cost / benefit and are straining to evade scrutiny I feel (fwiw ... not that my opinion is going to change anything). The Boeing 737 Max was safe until it wasn't - isn't a poor analogy I feel.
tomo
Tomo you're gonna stress yourself into an early grave!
Take up bridge or chess or somefink and keep off twitter.
martyn
Robert: If " Can't we get into a futile argument instead?" is a hint, it's one I'm happy to take - we've done the subject to death ;)
I admire your discipline in noting links to specific articles; I'm not so organised. I do keep some stuff, if I happen to read it on my desktop and remember to do so. Otherwise I rely on memory, saying "I read recently that...." and hope no-one challenges me to post a link.
MikeHig
https://fightforua.org/ - I put up the wrong link.
It's not on "the dark web" as you quaintly call it - they are buying pre-roll adverts on YouTube - which is something of a first?
- I initially thought the ad was for a computer game - it had that sort of a vibe to it.
If you think that the forced release of documents from Pfizer that were mere weeks ago sealed for 75 years isn't a fairly big deal then more fool you. There is a lot of squabbling and claim / counterclaim going on about Pfizer's medication - the testing regime, the results from testing and later efficacy results - the potential consequences (if any) for the vaxxed (i.e. me) going forwards should be scoped out - I see PR damage crews and a bunch of shills like Thomson Reuters rooting for Pfizer without addressing the contents of the released documents.
I'm prepared to accept that in the rush to roll out a vaccine that some shortcuts were taken (spilled milk 'n all) - the question really is - were the test results consistent with the initial efficacy and side effect claims and/or was $$$ inertia driving the whole shebang?
tomo
2000 mules