Discussion > EVs - Charging / Solar Panels
Governor Newsom in his interview said “we no longer need to drill things or extract things to advance our economic goals”
Someone should send him a Ladybird-style booklet on where stuff comes from, starting with Cobalt, Lithium, Rare Earths.
Total muppetry.
MikeHig
Total muppetry.
Sep 24, 2020 at 10:15 AM MikeHig
It has become traditional for California's Governors, all that wealth, but still bankrupt.
golf charlie
Well, 2020 at here it is! I am sure it represents a triumph of the latest technology, but this is still a rich man's toy designed to beat his Porsche at Ferrari money.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-8764277/amp/Teslas-520-mile-range-Model-S-Plaid-goes-sale-UK-131k.html?
Tesla Model S Plaid UK order books are already open with a price of £130,980
US firm claims it will be the fastest ever production car from 0-62mph
It can hit 62mph in 'less than 2 seconds' and has a top speed of 200mph
Footage of the tri-motor Model S Plaid lapping the Laguna Seca race track was released during Tesla Battery Day on 22 September
CEO Elon Musk has conceded that Cybertruck will unlikely be sold in Europe or any other markets outside the US
British Tesla fans have been offered the chance to buy its new 200mph tri-motor Model S 'Plaid' - which will become the electric car with the longest range available from 2021.
Following Tesla Battery Day on Tuesday, the US brand has listed for sale in the UK the new Model S Plaid, with an
*** 'estimated range' in excess of 520 miles*** - beating the Model S Long Range by 141 miles and more.
golf charlie
GC; that Model S Plaid is, imho, a petulant reaction to Tesla's failure to beat the Taycan's lap time at the 'Ring. They have been using a steroidal Model S but, so far, it has come up short and/or broken down.
The effort is widely seen as willy waggling because the two cars are not genuine competitors.
However, for the broader EV market, Tesla have just announced a significant step forward in battery performance and cost. If they can deliver, they will move the game on, again.
MikeHig
tomo; I don't think I would want to be too close to the connector when it is charging. They plan to use old EV batteries which, afaik, are probably only 400V so the current will have to be humungous, going into a steel-hulled vessel floating on water......
MikeHig
The effort is widely seen as willy waggling because the two cars are not genuine competitors.
However, for the broader EV market, Tesla have just announced a significant step forward in battery performance and cost. If they can deliver, they will move the game on, again.
Sep 25, 2020 at 1:05 PM MikeHig
Agreed, this is a bit like motor racing before WW1, but now intended to appeal to the driving enthusiasts that need the fastest car for the Golf Club car park, hoping to trade in their reliable wife for a much younger and more lively model, with firmer suspension.
Rather than the London Brighton run, how about some healthy competition?
An endurance rally from Land's End to John O Groats to Edinburgh to London to Brighton?
A 24 Hour race around a track?
A Mille Miglia type event?
golf charlie
healthy competition?
in EV sports?
pffffff.........
Sometime early in the IoM TT Zero there was a battery fire which iirc had the rider escaping promptly and patting his smoking crutch vigorously - there was a video at the time.... which disappeared quite promptly.
At present as I understand it the electric racing rules play to giving the vehicles an easy ride in range terms - although I understand that only one battery per race is now allowed in Formula E. The minimum race distance should be 2 battery fills.
It should also be one battery per season (or a stinging handicap).... and only solar / wind / nuclear top ups allowed.
re Tesla batteries - incremental battery improvements accumulate (groan)- but it's all sensible stuff engineering wise. Musk is keen on fantastical BS a lot of the time - I wish they'd stop with the horribly tortured percentages for the fanboys - what they're doing should easily stand on its own.
Big Clive opines/speculates a bit randomly on the new cells - before they were showcased
tomo
"At present as I understand it the electric racing rules play to giving the vehicles an easy ride in range terms..."
Sep 25, 2020 at 11:01 PM tomo
Hence my earlier comments! A showroom standard 3 door sub 1000cc hatchback on a single tank of petrol should beat any battery car in a "0-300 miles away" competition, even if the battery cars can recharge as often as they like.
How far can a battery car travel, maintaining an average speed of 50mph around a racetrack? It would not make exciting TV to watch, but the results would make sense for most potential buyers.
"Range of up to..." figures, quoted by manufacturers of battery cars are as dishonest as quoting the ability of a windfarm to generate electricity. Windfarm developers have demonstrated that they can't be trusted, and the Taxpayer gets ripped off. There is no point waiting for the EU to demand honesty from any sector of the Green Blob.
The UK is the centre of Formula 1 design and manufacturing. The UK could develop genuine and realistic tests that set the standards around the world for battery cars.
golf charlie
Sandy Munro on Tesla Battery Day
tomo
tomo; I thought that Munro vid was pretty disappointing. He seemed very vague and it was uncomforatble to listen to him gush about Tesla's advances without explaining them clearly. Then he talked of buying all his components from Tesla, as far as possible. A major lack of objectivity imho.
I was surprised by his unqualified endorsement for the structural battery pack and massive single castings inplace of multi-component structures. How will cars built that way be repaired? Some insurance companies already refuse to cover Tesla because of the cost and duration of repairs.
His answer to the "why not 800V?" question was bizarre, rambling about power supply issues.
MikeHig
MikeHig
I agree with your criticisms up to a point. Munro makes his money from the reports of his informed forays into the innards of products - which are priced I suspect in 5-6 digit territory. Tesla are several blocks ahead f the rest of the EV pack I feel - Mr. Munro's vagueness is understandable if a bit frustrating.
I have recent experience of design decisions and build quality on new Fords (simply unbelievably pisspoor) and hear / see about bad stuff on BMWs and Mercedes (EGR valves and inappropriate polymer / plastic bit choices in oil systems respectively) I'm hearing from people in the motor trade that wiring is now climbing the reasons to scrap list with some car wiring resembling bad Chinese mobile phone charger leads - ie a few strands of inferior copper alloy used in a harness that moves.... .
Design / production of many manufactured items has clearly lost input from experienced engineers and building as cheap as possible and gaming that the resultant products will emerge out the end of the warranty period without a recall / incident is all that's required by the bean counters. Boeing have problems as I hear it with products emerging from the Charleston 787 line (still !!) failing PDI and in some cases actually being refused by airlines....
Assuming that the new cells are produced up to a spec and terminal (no pun) flaws wrt chemistry and actual connections and thermal management have been dealt with it's been my experience that potting the resultant assembly greatly enhances durability out in the elements... Using a brick as a structural member ... why not? The castings ... hmmm... Tesla have been very keen to play down corrosion problems that have been emerging.... but squeezing out a large assembly that would take 45 minutes to fabricate via multiple sessions at jigs and welding and machining in a minute....If Musk could extrude his cars he would....
I'd add that Tesla have taken the Apple philosophy of "service" to new heights - one of my clients is a car body repair chain with a Tesla accreditation - Tesla really rinse their owners when stuff goes wrong.... See RichRebuilds for some Tesla antics.
tomo
oops wrong thread - Ukraine leak put in DJT thread
tomo
tomo; thanks for your insights into manufacturing quality in the motor industry. I wish I could say they came as a surprise.
wrt to Tesla's innovations, I agree that bonding the cells so that the battery can be used as a structural member makes a lot of sense. However I would add the proviso that they must be very confident of ultra-high reliability from these new cells as replacement or repair will be impossible. I imagine that the control software will be able to link out defective cells, should they appear, and that there may be a bit of reserve capacity.
The move to very large castings will reduce manufacturing costs, no doubt, but it seems likely to give rise to huge problems and costs when repairs are needed.
A few posts back we were discussing how modern cars are heavily integrated into the internet. You probably heard how that came back to bite Tesla the other day when owners who rely on the app to unlock their cars were unable to do so because of a problem with Tesla's servers.
MikeHig
MikeHig
as far as the battery cells are concerned I very much doubt that there are any redundant parts in the battery packs. I've seen some talk about Tesla's earliest forays into logging data from the vehicles being focused on the batteries and battery management. Cells are paralleled in the packs (and individually fused) and I haven't looked to see if the BMS can detect a failed individual cell but I strongly suspect they can - and that the decision to replace an entire pack depends strongly on the range profile of an individual vehicle.
Tesla's specs for the cells are extremely tight and I would be disappointed if all the interconnects weren't integrity monitored for voltage drops. I expect Tesla's battery pack failures are rare and getting rarer - pack unreliability would sink them - and they know that. One of the features of Lithium cell chemistry is that cell cycle life increases enormously with small reductions in state of charge voltages - don't charge 'em right up and don't run 'em far down and they will effectively last for ever....
I do wonder (OK I think they do...) if Tesla have their own version of the state of the batteries versus what's on the big screen. It's of note that Tesla have tiered the battery game >> commercial (trucks), standard (cars) and utility (power walls). Given the daily drive numbers I dug up at the start of this thread - exploiting the Lithium chemistry by "undercharging" the batteries seems like a corporate no brainer.
I'm fond of describing some of my work tasks as akin to a space mission - once you leave base you have to work with what you have (spares and tools being a week away...) and that attention to detail wrt confirming what you are leaving with is complete and in optimal shape for the tasks to hand ... Musk is in the space business - where tow trucks and side of the road repairs aren't an option - core components seem to be reliable and most complaints seem to be paint imperfections; poor fit of body panels; trunks and hoods that are hard to open and close; wind noise; and squeaks and rattles - which when you've paid $40k+++ shouldn't be happening. If Lexus get their EV act together Tesla will have to up that side of their game.
I have to be a wee bit circumspect with privileged information but the lockout you mentioned doesn't surprise me - Tesla IT department have had a number of embarrassing incidents - successfully glossed over for the most part with the usual corporate IT / customer support department flannel.
tomo
I can feel a challenge coming on
Beating the electric wheeliebin land speed record - recycling and EVs = win-win
tomo
tomo; I have read comments that support your view that Tesla monitors batteries remotely. Cars have had their charging rate reduced with no prior consultation which is seen as Tesla protecting the battery to avoid having to repair or replace under warranty.
Keeping the battery in the 20 - 80% band is often quoted as a recommendation for EV newbies. Of course that makes a bit of a monkey of claims about range but, for the majority of users, it's not an issue because they put the thing on charge every night anyway.
MikeHig
MikeHig
I've seen road trip reports from both UK and USA where the Tesla dashboard reporting of battery seemed anomalous - both over 2 years ago iirc - but essentially the battery ended up about 30/40 miles short of the capacity advertised at the start of the journey - the previous use seeming to be 10 - 20 mile urban commutes prior to a 140 miles of freeway / motorway....
I had a 3kW road legal scooter for a year and it only achieved ~40% of the claimed range (on brand new batteries) - but then I am used to two wheels with 10 to 20 times the power...... some scrotes stole it before I tired of range anxiety - but is was a close run thing.
tomo
EVs discussed on the GWPF :
https://www.thegwpf.org/how-green-are-electric-cars/
Environmental catastrophes - mineral extraction, then what to do with millions of worn-out batteries.
The paper looks at the opportunity cost of putting R&D into EVs, and not continuing work on better ICE technology.
Charly
Here's a more detail review of Tesla's recent battery announcements:
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/22/everything-you-need-to-know-about-teslas-new-4680-battery-cell/
MikeHig
EVs will need 10 Hinkley Points
over egging it a bit I feel... but not much.
tomo
https://www-autoexpress-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.autoexpress.co.uk/opinion/353262/id-prefer-less-electric-car-hype-and-fewer-broken-promises?
golf charlie
EVs will need 10 Hinkley Points
over egging it a bit I feel... but not much.
Oct 1, 2020 at 2:50 PM tomo
How many of these instead?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_modular_reactor
golf charlie
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/09/23/california-governor-gavin-newsom-signs-bans-sales-of-gas-cars-by-2035/
Newsom hopes everyone will follow California’s lead, but why would anyone else want to copy California’s slow moving energy disaster? The more engineering literate amongst us might have noticed that, thanks to renewables, California can barely keep their lights on. More unreliable renewables will just make this situation worse.
Adding millions of energy hungry electric vehicles, many of whose owners would want to charge at night, would be unlikely to improve California’s unstable renewable energy grid.
Governor Newsom in his interview said “we no longer need to drill things or extract things to advance our economic goals”
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/08/20/california-blackout-fury-its-not-just-the-heat-its-also-the-anti-nuclear-power-stupidity/