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Discussion > EVs - Charging / Solar Panels

Plonking stuff here to swerve digging it out of "Unthreaded"

Sep 4, 2020 at 1:09 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Using "standard panel" Dimensions :

Power :Panels :Area : Weekly @10% capacity factor :"Tesla Miles (345Wh/mile)"
3kW 12 19.2 m² 2.1kWh 6
4kW 16 25.6 m² 2.8kWh 8
5kW 20 32 m² 3.5kWh 10
6kW 24 38.4 m² 4.2kWh 12

This is obviously a very low-ball estimate - and summer <> winter is going to be rather different - it's not really very good.

Charging time for a Nissan LEAF
(range up to 168 Miles from every charge of its 40 kWh battery)
Charging method Charging time* Empty to full
3-pin plug 3.1kW 18 h
3.7kW 11 h
7kW (optional***) 6 h

So with a 24 panel array in full sun in summer you might just charge a Leaf in a day.... or something like that.

apols for the formatting

Sep 4, 2020 at 1:10 PM | Registered Commentertomo

re:EV charging

The seeming 203GWh / day required for passenger cars looks to rise by at least another 50GWh if one includes "commercial" but I haven't had the time to verify the categories and reconcile the quantities

Is it worth kicking this around a discussion topic?


The Petrol retailers association seems to have overall IC fuel figures HERE

UK Gasoline and Diesel Sales 2019

Total road fuels - 46.5bn litres

Broken down into:

Petrol - 16.2bn litres (Retail)
Diesel - 20.8bn litres (Retail)
Diesel - 9.5bn litres (Commercial)
Source - HMRC Receipts

At the end of 2018 there were:

A total of 39.3 million licensed vehicles in the UK

32.5m Cars
4.1m LGV's
0.5m HGV's
1.3m Motorcycles
1.0m other vehicle types
Source - Department of Transport

EU LGV / HGV vehicles are very common on trunk roads

There have been various estimates I recall on BH for EV power requirements over the years .... I haven't had time to hunt them down

The National Grid ex Windmill PR man's breezy confidence that generation and grid could cope seemed misplaced to me and I'd like to derive some cleaner, simple figures.

Sep 4, 2020 at 1:11 PM | Registered Commentertomo

I watched the podcast featuring the National Grid guy - and he didn't know or seemingly care if a domestic electricity supply was 80 Amps(19.2kW) or 80kW(333Amps) - not very confidence inspiring stuff... (he's from the wind industry)

Some back of fag packet sums

Number of cars in the UK 30000000 (DVLA)
Average Annual Mileage 7200 (RAC)
Daily miles average car 19.73
Tesla kWh/mile 0.34
Daily kWh required per car 6.78

Daily GWh required for passenger cars alone 203

as in 19GW per hour over the 10pm - 8:30am low demand period

Vans/LCVs do 12,800 miles a year, trucks significantly more than that .... and there's 4.5 million of those and more will be required as payload is hammered by having to cart batteries about.

Anybody know of an accurate quick n dirty summary of overall transport electricity demand for "all EV"?

Please correct my sums if you know different.

Sep 4, 2020 at 1:18 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Germany - joke charger wait till the end....

Sep 4, 2020 at 6:57 PM | Registered Commentertomo

https://www.thegwpf.org/net-zero-every-urban-street-and-front-drive-will-be-dug-up/

Sep 5, 2020 at 11:59 PM | Registered Commentertomo

tomo, thank you for starting this thread.
For reference and comparison purposes, I will post some links to solar panels, wind generators, water makers etc as used by yotties to enable them to cross oceans without burning diesel to generate electricity.

This is the small scale kit that does make the difference between life and death, and should be manufactured and marketed for disaster relief etc as portable modular units.

Sep 6, 2020 at 9:25 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

An article from Practical Boat Owner. As its name suggests, this is not a magazine for people who buy the latest yacht and can afford to pay someone else to maintain it. The full article is very "practical" about what a solar panel can do for a yacht and its owners. Prices per panel have fallen

"This article was updated by the author in February 2016. The original version of this article appeared in the Summer 2011 issue of PBO and was reprinted in the Essential Maintenance Guide in the summer of 2012. In February 2016 enough of the data, references and sources has changed to make it worth updating."

" Keeping batteries topped up is an ongoing problem for boat owners. Is it enough to run the engine from time to time and put up with the huge inefficiency, effects on long term engine performance and growls from your neighbours, or should you fit an independent means of charging the battery, such as a wind generator or solar panel?"

https://www.pbo.co.uk/expert-advice/solar-panels-everything-you-need-to-know-24455

Sep 6, 2020 at 4:53 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

From another of the practical sailing magazines, Sailing Today, a review of smaller wind generators. The smallest are ideal for keeping batteries topped up over winter, and powering bursts of the bilge pumps to clear leaking rainwater, the larger ones still have to be small enough not to snag sails, sailors, rigging etc when sailing.

Even the quietest ones annoy everyone within earshot!

https://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/gear/gear-on-test/wind-generators-buyers-guide/

Sep 6, 2020 at 5:08 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Watermakers or desalinators

Yachting World is for more upmarket yachts (but way below billionaire superyachts!)
A watermaker sucks in seawater and drips out desalinated water by pressuring through filters fine enough to remove salt. This technology will also remove viruses and bacteria so drinkable water can be produced from swampy boggy areas on land.

The article refers to the ARC Atlantic Rally for Cruisers. This is an organised Atlantic Crossing, not strictly a race, for those wanting to sail across the Atlantic without loss of all mod cons.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/features/water-on-board-arc-survey-66549/2

Sep 6, 2020 at 5:37 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Hydrogenerators are towed behind a yacht as it sails. A propeller is spun by the water flow and this generates electricity. These would work in a stream, river or tidal current, no yacht required.

https://www.sailingtoday.co.uk/gear/gear-on-test/hydrogenerators/

Sep 6, 2020 at 6:24 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

A bit random - but I divided the road fuel total by a UK population of 61 million = 762 litres each....

I'd pre-order a Thorium powered car if I thought it'd happen.

Sep 6, 2020 at 9:19 PM | Unregistered Commentertomo

Wired Woffle

Quite the most evasive piece I've seen on UK EV rollout and infrastructure

Sep 6, 2020 at 9:34 PM | Registered Commentertomo

"Electric cars: County car parks first for fast-charge points"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53989636

"Public car parks in two towns are the first in Powys to be fitted with electric car charging ports.

The fast-charge points in Machynlleth and Llanidloes can fully charge a vehicle in three to four hours.

Councillor Heulwen Hulme, cabinet member for the environment, said it was a "vitally important" step in the move toward a low-carbon future.

Powys said a further six locations would be fitted with ports in the future....".

Three to four hours is a fast charge? A fully charged vehicle can go how far? My diesel, whose tank I can fill in 5 minutes, gives me a range of 700-800 miles depending on the road conditions and the type of roads I'm driving on.

Sep 7, 2020 at 8:21 AM | Unregistered CommenterMark Hodgson

Mark - those charge points are likely subsidised by central government.... I'd bet that they see remarkably low rates of utilisation.

In Wiltshire - the only chargers I see regularly in use are at County Hall .... that might be a feature of when I look - but there's so rarely an EV at other council chargers in car parks that I've FoI'd for availability of utilisation stats.

Sep 7, 2020 at 11:41 AM | Registered Commentertomo

"We surveyed skippers in the Atlantic Rally for Cruising (ARC) 2013 to find out how they managed power generation on the crossing and afterwards in the Caribbean"
https://www.yachtingworld.com/yachts-and-gear/generating-power-on-board-64034

Useful information about power consumptions of technology from 5 years ago.


This paragraph makes comments about battery banks and capacities
"Requirement for the power to be self-sufficient is paramount on a long ocean passage. The majority of ARC boats had three battery banks and, unsurprisingly, average capacity increased with size, from 325ah among boats under 35ft rising to over 700ah for boats between 46 and 55ft and over 1,000ah for yachts over 56ft."

A yacht will have a car battery to start the engine. The engine alternator will recharge the engine start battery and the house/domestic battery bank that will be composed of Leisure Batteries as used in caravans, canal boats and other similar environments.

Most yachts have physical spaces designed to house battery banks consisting of 100-110amphour batteries. These cost about £100 each. This size also weighs about as much that anyone wants to transport out of a shop by hand, get to a yacht and manoeuvre into tight locations, tucked away in awkward places.

Sep 7, 2020 at 1:17 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

"Electric cars: County car parks first for fast-charge points"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-53989636

"Councillor Heulwen Hulme, cabinet member for the environment, said it was a "vitally important" step in the move toward a low-carbon future"
Sep 7, 2020 at 8:21 AM Mark Hodgson

Hulme considers it vitally important for elected Councillors to be able to drive battery cars and virtue signal to the masses.

A fast charger that can do its job in 3-4 hours at work is significant. One person can park, then charge all morning and allow someone else to do the same in the afternoon.

If someone lives 10 miles away, their round trip is 20 miles, assuming they make no detours to shop, or anything equally unimportant to life. One car is unlikely to complete 5 working days without the driver wanting to recharge. The highest demand for recharging will be monday and friday, if drivers have driven or plan to drive at weekends.

This assumes none of the drivers actually has to drive to carry out their duties as Council Officers.

During Office Hours, one fast charger can charge a maximum of 10 cars per week, if drivers just drive to work and back. In the real world that remains undiscovered by Green Blob Activists and supporting politicians, it is unlikely that one battery charger can service 5 cars, even with a designated Charger Official on the payroll to manage the importance of the egos involved.

Sep 7, 2020 at 2:01 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Mark H: "The fast-charge points in Machynlleth and Llanidloes can fully charge a vehicle in three to four hours."
Nowadays "fast" chargers run at a minimum of 50 kW and there are increasing numbers which have a much greater output: 125 - 150 kW is common for Tesla, for example. The maximum available at present is 250 kW but the Porsche Taycan is the only car that can handle such a hefty rate of charge, for now at least.
Most users will not be re-charging from empty and there are not many battery packs above 75 kWh so one hour's real "fast charging" should be sufficient.
I rather suspect the council is behind the times with its terminology or, more likely, these are "slowish" chargers - just a bit chunkier than a home unit.

Sep 7, 2020 at 9:52 PM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

".... so one hour's real "fast charging" should be sufficient."

Sep 7, 2020 at 9:52 PM MikeHig

Indy Car Racing refers to a" splash and dash" for a quick partial refuel.
Are these "Park and Spark" units safe for regular use?

Sep 7, 2020 at 10:43 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

GC: from what I have read, there do not appear to be any major safety issues. There have been a few cases of batteries catching fire when charging which, because EV's are newsworthy, tend to attract a lot of social media attention but they are very rare. A motoring journalist pointed out that ICE car fires are more likely, as we often hear on traffic reports.
However, if I had an EV and my garage was integral with my house, I'd install a good fire detection system and buy the appropriate type of extinguisher. People don't think of the risk - small as it may be - because we never refuel petrol or diesel cars at home.

Charging speeds have risen fast in recent years: things evolve quickly in the EV world. Indeed the limit on charging rates is now mostly set by the car's controls - battery management has become a key factor. The technology is improving all the time but it still seems to be the case that repeated rapid charging can reduce battery performance.
For example, some Tesla users have reported finding loan cars which are limited on charging rate and have reduced battery capacity.
Forum commentators recommend anyone looking at a second-hand EV to use a widget which allows the battery's history to be investigated. In my view looking after the battery of an EV is analogous to taking proper care of an ICE car - not thrashing a cold engine; using good-quality fuels and lubricants, etc.

Sep 7, 2020 at 11:22 PM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

Mark H: "A fully charged vehicle can go how far?"
That depends entirely on the car in question and how it is driven. The models on sale today seem to have ranges between about 100 and 350 miles. You pays your money......
Clearly the shorter ranges are intended to be second cars, runabouts, city cars, etc.. The top-end Teslas can get close to 400 miles and there are quite a few cars with ranges in the 250 - 300 bracket. Constant high speed eats into range, as does cold weather and use of ancilliaries.

When considering the range issue, it is important not to think in ICE terms. Yes, a tank of diesel will give far more total range but how often is that used in one journey? Also, if on a very long journey, it is reasonable to stop a few times. With fast charging a 30 minute stop will be enough for the next leg and many drivers do that every few hours anyway, especially if it's a family trip with kids/pets. So you plug in, go for a comfort break and grab a coffee and a croissant while monitoring your car's state of charge on your phone and keeping an eye of kids and pets.
Obviously this depends on the charging infrastructure. Tesla have this nailed and it's a huge selling point. It's still more of a lottery with other brands. Other countries seem to be ahead of us with more chargers, higher outputs and integrated payment systems.
For the vast majority of journeys, charging at home and/or at destination is perfectly adequate. It's a new habit to acquire for car use but one that we are all used to with our mobile phones. (I have fond memories of the old Nokias - 6310 was it? - which seemed to last for days on a charge).
I should clarify that these comments are based on feedback I have picked up from visiting EV forums and reading the motoring press. I have no personal experience of EV motoring but I try to keep an open mind. If an EV suited my requirements, I would give it a serious look - especially if I was in position to enjoy the tax benefits.

Sep 7, 2020 at 11:56 PM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

MikeHig

The higher charge rates are usually consequent from Ohm's law - they're higher voltage battery packs - the Porsche Taycan is 800V. A 250kW charge will still be ca. 300A

Where can I charge my Taycan?

The Taycan has charge ports in the two front side sections of the body. The vehicle can be charged on both sides using alternating current (in most markets), on the right-hand side it can also be charged using direct current. The connections are protected from the weather by electric charge port doors.

In truth .... an 11kV distribution transformer is a good start unless you've a substation on site....


https://www.zap-map.com/live/


The devil as usual is in the small print.

Rapid charging is possible through a CCS connection. The maximum rapid charge power is 262 kW. The battery can't be charged continuously at this power. In an average rapid charge session the average charge power will be around 183 kW. This charges the battery from 10% to 80% in around 25 minutes. A rapid charge like this will add about 160 miles of range.

Sep 8, 2020 at 12:15 AM | Registered Commentertomo

- I see that "150kW" charging is an extra £250 on the Porsche UK Taycan configurator

The range varies between 175 miles and 330 miles depending on terrain and your right foot

Sep 8, 2020 at 12:51 AM | Registered Commentertomo

Sep 7, 2020 at 11:22 PM MikeHig

Thank you, I have not witnessed a battery suffering spontaneous combustion, the fires tend to be caused by charging circuitry or connections being made by accident.

Refrigerated lorries tend to suffer fires that start with the fueling of the independent diesel engined generators that power the chillers even when the lorry is stationary, engine off.

I have caused sparks by being careless with steel tools when working on a battery, and also when doing other non-electrical work on a car engine.

Yacht battery banks are normally not within reach of the engine, but with high capacity banks, when a charging or alternator fault occurs, things can develop badly

I don't have experience of using or charging battery cars!

Sep 8, 2020 at 1:35 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

tomo: the Porsche is an extreme case, afaik, being the only car using an 800V system. The car is not particularly efficient in terms of miles per kWh because the emphasis is on performance.
Ah, the Porsche configurator.....aka the wallet-shredder. It used to have a neat feature where every option for the seats was an added cost. So the car was advertised as "starting at £xxxx" but you could not order that - it was not a deliverable spec. The cheapest seat choice was £2000....

GC; I'm not sure what triggers combustion in these battery packs. I think it's a similar issue to the laptop fires of a few years ago and the problems Boeing had with on-board batteries (before they had bigger things to worry about).
It presents a new challenge for fire-fighters, water being quite a good conductor.

Sep 8, 2020 at 9:13 AM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig