Bishop Hill ATI inches closer to Mann's emails
Apr 17, 2012 Climate: Mann FOI On Monday, there was another hearing in the American Tradition Institute's long legal battle to obtain Michael Mann's emails. Some of the details are reported in the Washington Times:
A judge is treading cautiously in a high-stakes case that pits the University of Virginia against a conservative institute seeking thousands of records related to climatologist Michael Mann.
Retired Arlington Circuit Judge Paul Sheridan, during arguments in Prince William County Circuit Court on Monday, denied without prejudice a motion filed by the American Tradition Institute that contended the university waived its right to the records when it released them last year to Mr. Mann’s lawyer and, in essence, Mr. Mann himself.
The ruling, while a defeat for ATI, means the group can make its case again at a later date.
Bishop Hill
The Washington Post also covers the story:
When the lawyer for renowned climate scientist Michael Mann said that the FOIA request for his e-mails by Rep. Robert Marshall (R-Prince William) and the American Tradition Institute was calculated to annoy and harass Mann, Sheridan interjected: “How does that affect their legal right to FOIA production? Do we have a ‘purity of heart test’ before we apply the FOIA acts?”
Later, when Mann’s lawyer said that the process of peer review for research was “the bedrock of science,” Sheridan responded, “But is it the bedrock of open government? ...Why does the general public have to trust scientists? Citizens wonder about open government. Why don’t we have access to the process? ... FOIA is saying citizens have a right to see what government is doing.”
Definitely worth reading the whole thing.
Reader Comments (25)
Though the mills of God grind slowly yet they grind exceeding small; though with patience he stands waiting with exactness grinds he all.
Perhaps that explains the rumours about Mann returning to a post at UvA.
If he is still at Penn, he might not be considered to be on the same side" as UvA, while ATI can argue that that as he is an "academic competitor" at the moment, and there is therefore an additional reason to allow the release of the emails.
Although I don't think I would be as convinced by that argument as much as by the "waiver" one.
"...inches closer"?
How?
It is likely that the e-mails would out Mann as a lying, corrupt, bullying swine, but I don't see how a court defeat brings their revelation any closer.
Can someone explain US law to me?
Somehow, releasing documentation to a former employee who could find himself sharing with the university the short end of some sort of prosecution doesn't seem to me to be the same as releasing the documentation to an ordinary member of the public. I suspect this view would make the idea of a waiver having occurred a little questionable.
Inches closer: because the court is now able to set a date when ATI may make its main case. The only worse outcome might have been a more prolonged argument at this stage.
My understanding is that a without prejudice dismissal of a motion in US law means that the motion is not finally dismissed (as it would be with a "with prejudice" ruling - as happened in the Cuccinelli case). It seems to me that this judge has come to the court essentially telling the parties that he is not ready to deal with their case. As a result I think the "without prejudice"dismissal is putting the motion aside for the time being. I stand to be corrected of course.
slightly OT but related to Mann - Craig Loehle has responded to Mann's slurs with a guest post at Anthony's:
Scientist’s rebuttal of Michael Mann’s 'denier' and other unsavory labels in his book
Sounds like a real judge there. It may be more than inches closer.
That WaPo article mentioning that Mann had used Wegman FOI'd material in his book is interesting. I didn't realise that. It does seem that Mann is getting all the stops pulled out on his behalf whereas others have not been so lucky.
That is a question not to be settled by the scientific consensus or appeals to authority. I feel a glimmer of hope.
[Snip - f-word]
Corbyn predicts UK May will be the coldest in a century: http://www.weatheraction.com/displayarticle.asp?a=450&c=5
GISS fiddling Arctic data; Icelandic Met office complains officially: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/25/another-giss-miss-this-time-in-iceland/
mydogsgotnonose: "Corbyn predicts UK May will be the coldest in a century"
That's weather, not climate (hint: check the link - www.weatheraction.com).
Is that cold May extreme weather or a new climate regime? I'll take 'both' for the big prize.
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The parties agreed the judge (Sheridan) will now read the emails ATI obtained to determine whether they are relevant to the case.
The case is all about the emails. The emails are surely the central evidence in the case. How can a judgement be made, unless the judge assimilates the evidence. If I was a judge, if you were a judge, the first thing we would do is read the emails. That is to say, ALL the emails. Wouldnt we?
actually, do we need to see these emails? Does anyone think they will show anything other than a chippy, aggressive person in an academic role that he feels, inside himself, unable to perform?
Diogenes; that is the reason why everyone wants to get their hands on the e-mails: We DON'T know what's in them. Could just show an incompetent crank cresting on a wave of ill-merited publicity; could-show a legitimate scientist with a bad attitude, could show data manipulation. Until the e-mails are shown we just don't know and this is unacceptable from an man and institution that depend on public money to function.
Rhoda Ramirez: "Could just show an incompetent crank cresting on a wave of ill-merited publicity; could-show a legitimate scientist with a bad attitude, could show data manipulation."
... and if we get enough words, we can make them show all of those ;-)
Regarding the predictions noted in Apr 17, 2012 at 7:32 PM | mydogsgotnonose
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Here in Spain, it has been unseaonably cool these past 7 weeks. Generally sunny and very little rainfall (in fact since the beginning of December, I think that we have had only 3 wet days in a period of 4 1/2 months).
The swimming season starts in the beginning of May in the sense that that is when the water parks open. Presently my swimming pool is very cold (probably about 16 degrees). It would take many days of really warm and sunny weather to get it up to a reasonable temperature (say 23 degC plus). Personally, I would not wish to go swimming until it is more like 26 or may be even 28 degC plus.
Normally when Easter is in April, I go swimming (albeit only briefly). I have not this year, and see no prospects of swimming at all in April. I have solar heating but at this time of year, because of the cold nights, it would only raise the pool temperature by about 2degC.
The 10 day forecast is warm and sunny but not hot (only about 22degC and 11/12 degC night). I cannot see any prospect that outdoor pools would be at an acceptable temperature at any time within the next 2 weeks I do not envisage that the water parks will be busy on the first May day bank holiday.
It is a fools game predicting the future but I would not be surprised if here in Spain, April turns out to be one of the coolest Aprils on record these past 20 years (which by implication probably means this past century). It certainly looks likely that May will get off to a cold start, so on that basis, I would not be surprised if Corbyn's prediction is correct.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKZUg-bTOak
One line from a great endlessly repeated most watched TV Show to completley describe the great lovable but annoying Sheldon .
Chuck Lorre one the greatest TV warm hearted comedy producers using co star Jim Parson .Playing borderline Aspbergers Sheldon Cooper to replace drugged out Charlie Sheen
Sheldon,s personality deleiberatley over complicates things so he can show off his own technical and scientific superiority
Climate scientices deleiberatley over simplify a vast complicated unpredictable turbulant atmosheric weather ECO system
So they finally show off their own moral interlectual and new found Authoritarian superiority
Politics decribed as showbiz for ugly people .Science described as showbiz for clever people .Climate Science mainly about funding .But also something greater EGO. Clever kids who did their homework instead of kicking a football around . Now they want their reward
Difference is Climate Scientices dont have the heart or Humanity or the Reasoning of Sheldon or the other Male and Female characters in Big Bang Theory
"Definitely worth reading the whole thing."
Definitely true.
Ordinarily, I thought talk of a Prof moving is part and parcel of angling for a pay rise, but I have my doubts here. I get the impression that Mann and UVA are systematically trying to remove the planks from the ATI arguments after the horse has bolted [mixing my metaphors]. Yet I can't help also thinking that UVA seem more put out than he does by the prospect of release. Strange.
Having read a few excerpts from Mann's recent book it appears that he has no objections to inaccurate vitriolic drivel being published in his name.
If these emails are worse than his book (and that, in itself, would be a spectacular feat) then they really will be an entertaining read.
Mann's career, and the reputation of the climate establishment, in all likelihood (i.e., 100%) would be in tatters if the contents of the emails were made public. I think the pretense of fighting for the principle is gone now.
Some rather less-than-glowing comments on Dr. Mann on this thread! I hope I'm not being a party-pooper in pointing out that Dr. Mann has made a substantial contribution to paleoclimatology and has a rather astonishing record of very highly-cited papers. It's impressive that Mann has maintained his outstanding research effort in the face of some pretty creepy and cowardly attacks of the sort discussed on this thread.
Might I also point out that while the owner of this blog is debating at the School of Geography and Geosciences in St. Andrews next week (an excellent department, and one who's students I'm sure can recognise bullcrap when they hear it!), Dr. Mann will be in Vienna receiving the Hans Oeschger Medal from European Geosciences Union. Congratulations all round!
Chris,
Trofim Lysenko had his supporters too - perhaps I should use the word 'has' given your clear support of worthless and highly destructive pseudoscience.
Walt Meier knows (see the thread on sea ice): "As a final, personal note let me make a more general comment. I am saddened that some people have become so cynical about climate scientists and climate data. I can appreciate that scientists have brought some this on themselves."
Some of us know who the ring leader of this desecration of science is, and also that defending the indefensible isn't good for personal credibility.
"Dr. Mann will be in Vienna receiving the Hans Oeschger Medal from European Geosciences Union. Congratulations all round!"
Is that the same Dr. Mann who discussed sabotaging the careers of scientific journal editors who published articles not in accordance with his own views?