Bishop Hill Energy...debate?
Aug 22, 2011 Today I went to a debate at the Edinburgh book festival. It was called "Energy is Power" and was ostensibly about nuclear energy. The panel was made up of Tim Radford, the former Guardian science editor, a engineer who worked on wave power and an English lecturer from St Andrews. I chatted to some of them beforehand and they were very charming.
As for the debate, some minor differences about wind power apart the panel members seemed to agree on most things: that there was no alternative to renewables, that nuclear was a non-starter, that we should change our lifestyles, that capitalism and Americans were bad. The balance of panel members seemed a little, erm, unbalanced.
Tim Radford said that the Chinese would have been better off without the development of the last twenty years because this had led to Kentucky Fried Chicken (actually I was in Shanghai 20 years ago and they had Kentucky Fried Chicken then (just). Someone wondered what kind of low-carbon transport he had used to get there and he cheerfully admitted to a measure of hypocrisy. The English lecturer chap seemed to think that the Africans would be better off without development too.
Some time after this I lost the will to live and I'm afraid to say my mind wandered.
Reader Comments (26)
I think these people live on a different planet from normal people.
All this nonsense about carbon footprint: It is foot prints that they want fewer of. I am still appalled by the airline that included support of birth control counseling in Africa in the cost of the ticket. "Fly with us and prevent an African."
Fewer foot prints: isn't that what the eugenics folks were after?
I guess none of the three have even considered swapping their western life style for that experienced by an "African". I grew up in a housewithout electricity, downstairs lighting by calor gas, upstairs paraffin/candles. Cooking & hot water on a Rayburn, fuelled by wood, peat and when we had themoney coal. We also had a 2 ring + grill calor "cooker". Our neighbours had ex-army diesel generators 2 or 3Kw I think, barely enough for lighting. Water from a spring, sanitation septic tank. The house was only electrified at the start of this century (by new owners) and is still without a landline telephone (£30k+ for BT to do it), no mobile the signal doesn't get with in 3 miles. The 3 day week which passed my mother by would have been a major improvement for my childhood. All this in rural Perthshire.
I suggest these guys give it a go for 5 years then come and tell me how wonderful it all was. Obviously they will only be allowed to go to the shops (4 or 7 miles) on foot or by bike, Liptons van having long since ceased.
For my part I would never willingly go back there, and bless Faraday, Eddison, Tesla, Swan, Diesel, Otto and the rest everyday.
Since many in the West, particularly UK and Europe can no longer produce goods competively, the climate scare has been used as an attempt to strangle the developing countries, who are way ahead of them now: China, India Brazil etc.
China and India are proving too big to bully, but Africa is divided and is being forced into under development or worse.
These western policies STINK, and words fail me to describe the people who promote them.
Andrew:
Were these guys authors? Did they volunteer these idiotic statements?
Could you ask for your money back?
A few years daub and wattling in the cold would undoubtedly help with the middle class guilt. I wonder if this can be arranged by a grateful nation? (Or is this actually the essence of the UK economic plan?)
As to the 'Americans were bad' vibe, aren't those who govern America descended from a small group of irritating, religious fundamentalists, who were ejected from the UK because they did not approve of new technologies, like buttons? (which I suppose brings us back to the self loathing issue).
But get to the important stuff, your Bishopness. Were there peculiar hats? Did the Birkenstock stand do a lively business? Were Nobel Prizes given out?
"Edinburgh book festival": these people can't tell the difference between fiction and non-fiction.
You attend a religious service and your mind wandered...? Oh, ye Bishop of little faith! I hereby sentence you to watch An Inconvenient Truth 10 times.
"Some time after this I lost the will to live and I'm afraid to say my mind wandered."
Come on, Bishop, you got us, your parish. Cheer up.
BTW, if you love your children (as I understand you have) tell them to begin to study Chinese right away... as a precautionary measure against the imminent disaster from the Climate Crisis.
Best regards.
Bishop: A classic line, sir... albeit a sad one:
"Some time after this I lost the will to live ..."
Bernie
The event was sponsored by the Scottish Oil Club, who didn't look best amused at the quality of the entertainment. It was a shame - the equivalent event last year was really very good.
I was there too. One the whole, the panel members were full of opinions and viewpoints--after all, that's why they were there for.
So much of what they stated as "facts" to support their opinions and "answers" jarred against what I feel are my own "deep understandings" achieved through a foundation of a reasonable education and life-long learning.
I tried to take notes to support some sort of question to them to give them pause to consider; but like the Bishop, "ran out of energy".
It was awful.
Sound as though Ian Sample's 'Aliens' have actually already arrived?
"losing the will to live"......mind control, perhaps that's their intent.
Naaaaah... They're just brainwashed themselves.
"Some time after this I lost the will to live"
Unsuprisingly you ran out of energy during the "NO Energy Debate"
The non debate was actually useful in reinforcing the key problem we face with the alternatives/warming "debate" in general, ie that the baseline for the debate is set and driven by non experts throwing around bad science, dodgy facts and misinformation. I found it humorous that the one participant could in the same sentence pat himself on the back for getting rid of his car 30 years ago, tell us we need to change our lifestyles whilst recounting his trip to Shanghai ! This is typical of the left of centre intelligentsia, ie, "the little people need to change their lifestyles, but not me". Similar to Al Gore flying his private jet around the world to lecture us on global warming.
Here is how we deal with "renewables" in Canada.
If you get an opportunity have a look here.. Pembina Institute
See this report they commissioned… Page 63 (Labeled page 51 — the third point of the conclusions…
http://www.opg.com/power/thermal/Pembina%20Biomass%20Sustainability%20Analysis%20Final%20Rev%2015%20April%202011.pdf
In Ontario, there is a sustainable long-term flow of 2.9M ODT at existing harvest rates in the Boreal and GLSL forest regions (Figure 44). Further, an additional but declining tonnage of biomass is available in the short term (2015 to 2060), at harvest rates of 20.1 Mm3/year (Figure 59).
How thoughtful — the Pembina Institute of Alberta seems to be recommending that we burn our Boreal Forest for Electricitry supply….
See appendix A…
Purpose:
To convene a small group of experts (~8 people) to support the direction, development and provide input on key issues related to sustainability analysis of electricity generation using renewable biomass for the four coal power plants in Ontario (Atikokan, Thunder Bay, Lambton and Nanticoke).
As a return favor, may I recommend that Alberta sell it’s white Pine forests to Japan to produce paper? Oh, they are doing that already? Well practice makes perfect…
Bottom line? Let's convert the old coal plants to burn the Boreal (Northern Conifer) forest.
What the heck -- why not
This is also how the BBC define "debate" The misuse of language, by inventing an entire new meaning for a word with a proper definition to deceive is one of the problems of politics
@mbs.
Yep. That summed up the night.
Another enemy of humanity then.
Dear God. You did well to stay in your seat Bish. I would have had to leave the room.
Classic social control. Narrow the debate. Not "renewables vs fossil fuels" but........ "which renewables should we be using?"
So you had one person with a product to sell, and two arts grads, for a debate on a scientific topic. With hindsight, this does not look a very promising line-up, although about par for the Grauniad and their fellow-travellers.
"that capitalism and Americans were bad."
I'll say no more, they've said it all & shown their true colours, the darling watermellons! :-) Does that include those Americans who agree with them?
"Tim Radford said that the Chinese would have been better off without the development of the last twenty years"
Bish, I cannot for the life of me understand how you kept your seat! The blatant hypocrisy of that one sentence alone would have had me stood on the chair screaming abuse! I only returned from Shanghai a few months ago after a 5 year stay. It is such a wonderful city and I would advise anyone who has the chance to go and enjoy its cosmopolitan atmosphere.
That said, one only has to look deeper to realize that out of 20+ million people, probably 18 million are hard working, itinerant workers from the countryside supporting the rich. A short train ride outside Shanghai will show the real China living on a few $'s per month and subsistence farming with no social/medical welfare and a society whose old people rely on a fit young family to support them.
It is okay for some green hippy called Tim Radford to deny the Chinese people of the simple right to turn on a tap and receive treated, bug free water. They have lived like medieval peasants for all this time, gone through the revolution that ensured millions died through starvation, due to another guys attempt at controlling society, so what difference would it make to them!
I have news for Radford! Live with it! The genie is out of the bottle in China. Prosperity is increasing and for some strange reason the Chinese seem to like having a light in their house, a TV in the corner and the ability to wash in a shower rather than a bucket in the yard! They even like the fast trains to go home on for the Chinese New Year! Mao Zedong's genocide would pale into insignificance if the current government were to try to halt progress!
Rant over but blood still boiling! (By the way Bish, They also still like their bloody fireworks for 7 nights during the Chinese New Year!) ;-)
By the way, I spent a good few years working in West Africa and I would so love to take the English lecturer chap who, "seemed to think that the Africans would be better off without development", there for just one year to see what I did.
He would not last one week away from an air conditioner! Pompous prat!