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Discussion > Grenfell Tower - Deadly Fires: Mismanagement, or just no managers present

stewgreen 9:48pm

I thought you might have found a BBC ≡ CNN clip there for a moment.

The near constant attempts to massage political advantage out of the Grenfell fire have gotten pretty tiresome.

More from Richard North

Monbiot's now started on it....

Jul 6, 2017 at 11:23 AM | Registered Commentertomo

@tomo, Jul 6, 2017 at 11:23 AM

Re: More from Richard North

Thank you.

Jul 6, 2017 at 10:36 PM | Registered CommenterPcar

I'll wait for the actual inquiry
..but I'm guessing some of the flats were being run as bunk-bed hostels
Hence the uncertainty on the number of dead.

Jul 7, 2017 at 10:28 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

I'll wait for the actual inquiry

Labour-Momentum it would seem won't engage with an inquiry unless it's led by a gender reassigned relative of David Lammy. The figure of £77K spend per flat in the recent refurbishment rather gives the lie to "austerity" claims...

Setting the scope of the inquiry is a daunting challenge presenting some fairly obvious possibilities for unintended consequences - most public buildings have a occupation fire limit - there'll be some panic in other boroughs if the fire limit is more strictly enforced - ditto for the subletting.

I wonder if the abuse of public housing provision will get a thorough airing ? - not holding my breath.

Jul 8, 2017 at 8:34 AM | Registered Commentertomo

Top story on C4 1900 News tonight

Tonight this programme can reveal that a third key product was used in Grenfell’s cladding system, never revealed to the public before.

We reveal a never discussed before third source of Greenfail fire - the insulation :/facepalm

Have C4 News discovered here, TimW, Arrse, JuliaM, TimN, Longrider...

Still no mention of Blair's 2005 dereg law, 2006 insulate law & EU green laws.

Laughable & disgusting

Jul 11, 2017 at 12:02 AM | Registered CommenterPcar

Thatched panels on a new eco building at UEA,
Fire safety?.

Jul 20, 2017 at 3:42 PM | Unregistered CommenterMessenger

I would doubt there is any problem. Fire safety for the building was in the hands of Fire Ingenuity, a well respected consultant company.

Jul 20, 2017 at 4:29 PM | Unregistered CommenterSupertroll

I don't know if this is true ... but according to The Sunday Times - the BBC has commissioned a drama *series* on the Grenfell Tower

Sep 10, 2017 at 10:39 AM | Registered Commentertomo

Predictable... - will we, I wonder - get to find out who the fake claimants are ? - and if they actually exist....

Sep 19, 2017 at 3:04 PM | Registered Commentertomo

will we, I wonder - get to find out who the fake claimants are ? - and if they actually exist....

Sep 19, 2017 at 3:04 PM | tomo

If they never existed we will not find out who they never were.

Wasting Police time is a criminal offence. If the delays in confirming the final death toll are partially due to confusion about the number of people alleged to be missing, then the human cost of any attempted fraudulent financial claims, runs into millions.

As and when any of these initial attempted frauds gets to court, we will find out how opportunistic these claims were.

Sep 19, 2017 at 4:55 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Metro : Eight people ‘who lied to claim money’ after Grenfell Tower are facing fraud charges
BBC news said death toll likely to be reduced
I wonder if some people could even have claimed for multiple relatives , so the death toll could come down more than 8

Sep 19, 2017 at 5:07 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Sky News coverage.

Now then ... about the quantity of purported sub letting and an investigation of that across London councils... Mayor Khan would you care to comment?

Sep 19, 2017 at 7:22 PM | Registered Commentertomo

From this website, the terms of reference for the Inquiry

Grenfell Tower Inquiry
Terms of Reference
15 August 2017

The Inquiry’s Terms of Reference are:

1. To examine the circumstances surrounding the fire at Grenfell Tower on 14 June 2017, including:

(a) the immediate cause or causes of the fire and the means by which it spread to the whole of the building;

(b) the design and construction of the building and the decisions relating to its modification, refurbishment and management;

(c) the scope and adequacy of building regulations, fire regulations and other legislation, guidance and industry practice relating to the
design, construction, equipping and management of high-rise residential buildings;

(d) whether such regulations, legislation, guidance and industry practice were complied with in the case of Grenfell Tower and the fire safety
measures adopted in relation to it;

(e) the arrangements made by the local authority or other responsible bodies for receiving and acting upon information either obtained from local residents or available from other sources (including information derived from fires in other buildings) relating to the risk of fire at Grenfell Tower, and the action taken in response to such information;

(f) the fire prevention and fire safety measures in place at Grenfell Tower on 14 June 2017;

(g) the response of the London Fire Brigade to the fire; and

(h) the response of central and local government in the days immediately following the fire;


2. To report its findings to the Prime Minister as soon as possible and to make recommendations.

Item 1.(h) is the only one concerning events AFTER the fire. I presume the Police and Courts do not need to wait until after the Inquiry, before cases are brought to Court for Fraud in the time after the fire.

The Inquiry has not been asked to consider the number of people who were legally resident in Grenfell Tower at the time, or the number of actual occupants, at the time. It should be possible to conduct some further investigations, about possible fraud in terms of claimed occupancy, without prejudicing the formal Inquiry.

Those Politicians (all Parties) who sought to make Political gains from the fire, will have been told by now, to keep quiet. Some of them wish they had been told that sooner.

Sep 20, 2017 at 12:00 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Interesting GC.
That the terms of reference use the word "including" does not exclude other germane data?
If, say, <speculation alert> there was overcrowding (due to subletting or otherwise) and this contributed to some attribute of the event. Then surely it would be sensible/permissible to investigate.

Sep 20, 2017 at 1:56 PM | Unregistered Commentercolin smith

colin smith
I ďon't think the number of people in the building when the fire started, was a contributory factor to the fire starting, or why so many were still inside the building, and trapped at upper levels, as it spread.

The Police will know how many people died, and have forensic evidence to match with dental and medical records, but no dental/medical records may exist within the UK for them to match an identity to, in all cases.

If, for example, the Police have 80 human remains to identify, but only 60, or possibly over 100 people reported as missing, you can understand their reluctance to get too specific about numbers and names. Charging eight people with attempted fraud may not relate to eight alleged victims, it could be more, it could be less. But the Police must have had good evidence to arrest and charge.

There may have been scams and fraud going on before the fire involving payments for accommodation. These will be unravelling, however it is understandable that the Police are focusing initially, on identifying the dead. Those attempting a new fraud, or trying to maintain an existing one, will be deliberately hampering Police investigations.

Sep 20, 2017 at 4:19 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

I know stewgreen is fond of "too wow to be true"



Oct 12, 2017 at 11:06 PM | Registered Commentertomo

120 flats and 91 people per flat with mental health problems ?

There are some things that don't add up ...

LBC has the story apparently

Will we see a clarification of both the quantity quoted and the source of this amazing revelation?

Main story which it seems was itself sourced from Sky News....

Oct 30, 2017 at 2:35 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Seems like it might just qualify as irony of a sort...

Grenfell cladding manufacturer's factory catches fire....

Nov 5, 2017 at 11:17 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Nov 5, 2017 at 11:17 PM | tomo

It may not be irony or coincidence.

How did it start? Why did it spread and what was it that actually burned? Had the factory been operating at normal capacity?

Nov 6, 2017 at 11:42 AM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Sky News have been exploring Grenfell .... it seems there's a "DECC" word count thing.... (h/t Bish on Twitter)

Nov 27, 2017 at 11:11 AM | Registered Commentertomo

Matt Ridley has been cherry picking - although one gets the impression the whole matter is a target rich environment....

Nov 27, 2017 at 11:46 AM | Registered Commentertomo

"Sir Martin Moore-Bick has promised his public inquiry will "get at the truth" of what caused the fire, and Dame Judith Hackitt is conducting a review of building regulations and fire safety."

We know what "caused" the fire.

How did it spread, and why did 71 people fail to get out?

Nov 27, 2017 at 12:00 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Nov 27, 2017 at 11:46 AM | tomo

Poachers can become good game keepers, but not if they continue as poachers. They will never catch themselves.

I do not know whether foam insulation sold in the UK to meet UK Building Regulations Approval, is an identical product to that sold in the EU, to satisfy identical EU Standards?

Developers/Builders/Designers have regarded "Building Control" as an unnecessary chore. Giving private enterprise the opportunity to offer a cheaper and easier option to achieve compliance was a risk.

Nov 27, 2017 at 2:12 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

I wonder who the EU took advice from, to design the standards and test procedures for diesel emissions?

Nov 27, 2017 at 2:20 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

It takes a lot of effort to set up a situation so dangerous under the guise of “helping the poor and the polar bears”.
JoanneNova: Green rules, profit, legal bullying drove the Grenfell disaster

Dec 5, 2017 at 12:39 PM | Registered CommenterRobert Christopher