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Discussion > Drs against Diesel : A subsidy mafia Front

OK Dr Jonathan Grigg was just on R5 Live about Sadiq's pollution alert
Two things struck me.
- He ended by saying "Diesel is the low hanging fruit we have to get rid of it its fumes are toxic
Toxic ..That seems hyberbolic, cos diesel is ubiquitous and the vast majority of people lve long lives with no obvious notice of "diesel fume" damage.
- Secondly he did not use the Doctors against Diesel moniker.

Just slightly before him they had proof in terms of a victim a 34 year old regular cyclist
"I wen to see a special and he said 'You've got asthma welcome to London' matter of factly"

The thing is if diesel is the magic harm ...wouldn't you first be seeing HITS at a much higher rates in the specific groups most exposed to it . say Garage mechanics and taxi drivers ?
and then get those guys wearing masks etc.
In towns which are small enough to have most particulates blown away you'd still expect taxi drivers to have a higher exposure than someone walking to school in London

But instead we seem to see diagnosis across random people in London.
But you have to filter rises in diagnoses for other factors
If you see 80 asthma diagnoses per 1000 popn where it used to be 30 40 years ago, you can't assume those surplus 50 wouldn't have got it 40 years ago
In the old days 20 of the 50 would have been smokers and so assumed they had a smokers cough
and maybe another 10 wouldn't have been diagnosed cos the tests were not as sensitive as they are today.

Jan 24, 2017 at 12:02 AM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Such a shame Jonathan doesn't come back to discuss the facts and evidence behind his hyperbole.

For example, this recent alert appears to be a result of the still, cold weather conditions and solid fuel heating:


The last time pollution reached this level was early last month, according to pollution monitoring stations run by King's College London.

However, a spike in pollution levels on Sunday "when there wasn't much traffic on the road, was significant" Dr Fuller said.

In recent weeks several "high" alerts have been issued.

The current weather conditions, coupled with an "unusually high amount of domestic wood burning", has led to the highest pollution alert being issued.


Jan 24, 2017 at 9:39 AM | Unregistered Commenternot banned yet

Nby: given the increased prices being forced upon “fossil” fuels, why should anyone be surprised that people are resorting to this form of energy? Surely, they should be praising it! After all, it is one of the prime “renewable” sources of energy.

Jan 24, 2017 at 10:11 AM | Registered CommenterRadical Rodent

@NBY The prog presenter specifically asked Grigg what the cause was ..and Griig only mentioned diesel not wood.
I wrote this before I saw your post :
London Pollution Alert : Paul Homewood draws our attention to a quote buried in the BBC report
\\However, a spike in pollution levels on Sunday "when there wasn't much traffic on the road, was significant" Dr Fuller said.
In recent weeks several "high" alerts have been issued.
The current weather conditions, coupled with an "unusually high amount of domestic wood burning", has led to the highest pollution alert being issued.//

Dr Grigg forgot to mention that bit in his radio seg last night

Indeed the Evening Standard just ran a headline London pollution levels sent soaring by wood fires during cold snap

Jan 24, 2017 at 1:12 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

BTW another point "All other things being equal"..., but they are not cos other factors have changed"
Is a common dilemma in attribution.

I guess that these days there are a lot more INDOOR domestic pets than 30 years ago, cos vacuuming seems to be all about sucking up pet hair. And that might cause more respiratory problems.

Jan 24, 2017 at 1:14 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

The Griggs of the world are gonna ignore the lowest hanging fruit of wood fires, because that is recently captured CO2 not fossil diesel, and because they can't face the moral dissonance involved in all the third world deaths in absence of a grid thanks to carbon demonization.

I wish he had been capable of a discussion; I would have liked to see him work around those two obstacles, if indeed they function in his case.

Jan 24, 2017 at 1:19 PM | Unregistered Commenterkim

stewgreen - thanks for the links.

Do you have the Radio 5 show details and a rough idea of how far into the show the segment was broadcast?

Jan 24, 2017 at 3:31 PM | Unregistered Commenternot banned yet
Jan 24, 2017 at 5:27 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Thanks again stew - much appreciated.

I hope poor Mr Hussey wasn't taking the tube with the misapprehension it would reduce his exposure to particulate matter in the air he was breathing. The graphic here suggests it really would be dramatically doing the opposite:


The high readings registered on the tube were mostly dust from the rails being worn down by the train. Unfortunately, there is very little information available on whether these particles are more or less harmful than those from car exhausts.


Perhaps Jonathan should be encouraging tube travellers to rethink their approach?

Jan 24, 2017 at 6:00 PM | Unregistered Commenternot banned yet

Quick reminder to lurkers
Who are we laymen to question some hallowed scientists ?

#1 Everyone has the right to ask questions, cos we all suffer the consequences of new law and all pay tax for them.
#2 Errors do sometimes creep into published science and are overlooked by fellow scientists ..maybe due to groupthink (examples do often crop up here on the blog)
#3 Indeed sometimes the people posting here are scientists who post under pseudonyms, cos they are not otherwise to speak their opinions freely.

Jan 24, 2017 at 11:26 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

@SandyS Jan 24, 2017 at 5:20 PM posted this
"I've have been saying that wood burning is a problem for several years now (and in comments here), good see Dr Fuller is catching up.. 175,000+ wood burning stoves are sold annually in the UK at the moment.
Most will be in urban areas.
The two days of the week when most people will be at home are Saturday and Sunday replacing diesel produced particulates with wood produced ones."

Jan 24, 2017 at 11:28 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

My heart goes out to Londoners- the big green blob is now giving you a taste of the post-fossil fuel world. Big green is taking you backwards to those idyllic days of yore when life was short, brutal and polluted.
California under the control of big green is making the same journey by the way.
Big green = big pollution
Here is a great TED talk that documents how deception and manipulation have been the multi-generation hallmarks of big green:

And unlike big green, the speaker in this talk offers real solutions- both to the corruption our public square by big green and to air pollution.

Jan 25, 2017 at 1:25 PM | Unregistered Commenterhunter

This was posted by Caleb at Sunrise's Swansong recently.

One thing you learn during this education is that smoke is basically fire which hasn’t ignited. A cleanly burning fire is a fire which ignites all it’s smoke.

Smoke can therefore be seen as a waste of potential fire. Any smoke going up your chimney is fire that could have heated your home, but instead is being wasted. Because wasting anything was an anathema to my Pilgrim and Puritan ancestors, their frugality demanded fires burn cleanly. (Even 150 years later Benjamin Franklin was inventing an afterburner for chimneys, on the second floors of houses, to burn the smoke from the downstairs fire.)

Lastly, any smoke that rises up your chimney will only remain gaseous at high temperatures. As it cools it condenses to liquid tars and then solidifies to creosote. Where this is most likely to happen is where the inner wall of the chimney goes from warm, inside the house, to cold, where it pokes up into the bitter blasts of winter gales.

Jan 25, 2017 at 2:02 PM | Unregistered CommenterSandyS

Yesterdays Times carried this Schools warned over toxic air threat
scary scary...
The air is not toxic just occasionally is not 100% clean in some locations.
It quotes Penny Woods "most councils are not monitoring air quality near schools"
well you would if the school was in a bad area , but most of the time like in the countryside it's unnecessary.

I see all papers carried a similar story the Sun etc.

Jan 25, 2017 at 2:23 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

stewgreen, pupils need to be more aware of teaching contaminated by the lies of climate science. It may have terrible consequences for their abilities to think throughout their lives.

Jan 25, 2017 at 3:09 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Did the French just ban diesel cars older than 2001? I've just seen an article in Zero Hedge.

More idiocy to come.

Jan 26, 2017 at 10:26 AM | Registered CommenterMicky H Corbett

@Micky H Corbett
Paris is not France .. and it's all cars not just diesel and it was from July 2016
(Monday to Friday between 8am and 8pm and ban doesn't apply on the outer ringroad A86 motorway)
(London is not England never mind the UK. The sooner we build a 40ft wall around it the better)

"By 2020, the only private cars allowed to drive on Paris streets will have to be ones registered after 2011, and motorcycles registered after 2015."
There has just been a touch of tightening on diesel
"Any diesel-run vehicle showing a 'Level 5' sticker on their windscreen, which indicates they were produced from 1997 to 2000, is not allowed on the road" (6% of cars)

The indy reports The measures have been met with anger by some French motorists, who claim it is unfair because it ultimately targets the “poorest citizens”, who “cannot buy a new vehicle”.

\\If reducing car numbers by half "was deemed ineffective", doesn't that suggest that the problem lies elsewhere?//

Jan 26, 2017 at 1:11 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

I'm aware that just as anti-diesel stories maybe rooted in pro Electric Car PR, then anti-wood maybe rooted in Pro-diesel PR.

pg 7 Times today Half page against wood quoting Gary Fuller of Kings College
The facing page has item about BP research story that it expects EV growth to be 100m by 2035 (6% of all cars) , but that is still a drop in the ocean. As that would replace about 1% of global oil demand.

I see the Indy is not censoring comments as strictly as the Guardian does. They allowed this :
"a tiny minority of UK households using wood stoves emit over twice as much PM2.5 as all the UK’s cars, trucks and buses" BMJ ...Guardian

Jan 26, 2017 at 1:20 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

That 2015 BMJ article author Dr Dorothy L Robinson Snr Statistician Australia
argues that PM2.5's are played down in favour of worrying about other factors
"Yet in a study with much lower levels (median PM2.5 of 7.3 ug/m3) an increase of just 3 µg/m3 in annual PM2.5 exposure was associated with a 9% increase in deaths from ischemic heart disease and 3-4.5% increases in all deaths" (yeh how robust is that ?)

"The disproportionate amount of PM2.5 pollution from domestic wood burning continues to escape attention."

"Revised figures show domestic wood burning to be the UK’s largest single source of PM2.5 emissions"

"a single log-burning stove permitted in smokeless zones emits more PM2.5 per year than 1,000 petrol cars "
"Wood stoves last much longer than cars."

"current levels of emissions are predicted to cause 1.5 degrees of warming within 15 years and 2 degrees within 35 years"
Ha ha ha ! (gives clownlike reference ...for it "Howarth, R.W., Methane emissions and climatic warming risk from hydraulic fracturing and shale gas development: implications for policy. Energy and Emissions Control Technologies, 2015: p. 45-53."

Jan 26, 2017 at 4:54 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Hah hah, Jon, case of child's asthma attacks precipitated by envy of playmate's bigger and better trucks with which to play.

Jan 26, 2017 at 5:05 PM | Unregistered Commenterkim

Re:wood stoves
Times letters page has a protest from Master Thatchers Society complaining due to the fashion for wood stoves 1 thatched house is suffering serious fire every week. not on website yet

Jan 28, 2017 at 11:21 AM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

stewgreen, burning wood as opposed to coal does produce more sparks to go up a chimney, though I don't know that woodburning stoves are worse than an open fire.

Traditional steam railway locomotives on US railways had a very different style of chimney, as they contained "spark arrestors", to catch sparks from the (mainly) wood fuel, as they passed through dry woodland.

Jan 28, 2017 at 12:02 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

Westminster City Council is banning or charging extra for diesel cars.

Will this kill the London Taxi?

Jan 28, 2017 at 12:06 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie

gc - link please?

Jan 28, 2017 at 2:02 PM | Unregistered Commenternot banned yet

nby, heard it on BBC Radio 2 news while driving

Jan 28, 2017 at 2:43 PM | Unregistered Commentergolf charlie