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Discussion > Drs against Diesel : A subsidy mafia Front

I note that the Times has dropped the 'premature', so now its 40K deaths per year. Wondered how long that would take.

May 12, 2019 at 2:04 PM | Unregistered CommenterMuppets are us

The wilful and persistent inaccuracy of reporting tells us that this media campaign has nothing to do with reporting facts and reality.

This is pure and simple propaganda.

May 12, 2019 at 6:48 PM | Unregistered Commenternot banned yet

Muppet there are 2 different 40K claims
- One slightly robust comes from adding up the days we ALL lose
- The "40K premature deaths" claim appeared out of thin air in another report.
..No one has pollution written on their death certificates
A handful of asthma patients die every year
... those deaths cannot be pinned on pollution
but are likely other factors
..eg asthma hospital admissions correlate to grass pollen.

May 18, 2019 at 1:59 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

I'm still days behind my tracking
Today Saturday pg 18 nice photo and half page "Grow your own barrier against pollution" quotes RHS

May 18, 2019 at 2:06 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

libmob and police shout "Brexiteers should be wary of using stirring language"
... then we get this from the Times
pg 30-31 SATURDAY INTERVIEW
Climate change makes violence in the years to come inevitable’
Politicians must listen to the young before things turn ugly, according to one of Extinction Rebellion’s leading voices
Rachel Sylvester, Alice Thomson
May 18 2019, 12:01am, The Times

CCBGB
\\ Difficult not to conclude that so-called climate change has become a flag of convenience used by civil disobedience activists, which both draws in greater numbers and affords their anti-capitalism protests a greater level of acceptance than would otherwise be tolerated.
Protestors ignore that claims of only having a short time to save the planet first appeared 30 years ago yet remain unfulfilled, and that demands of net zero in 6 years would destroy UK society rather than protect it, and have negligible effect on the global atmosphere //

\\ 'Then he read This Changes Everything by Naomi Klein. “I started crying in my bedroom. It was almost a physical, visceral response to this emergency. It didn’t make sense to me just to donate . . . a systemic change was needed. I stumbled on this tiny group and offered my flat.”'

So naive and depressed young graduate reads ill-informed anti-capitalist eco-polemic, has emotional crisis, and discovers therapeutic sense of belonging in quasi-religious anti-capitalist eco-cult....//
\\ Unnerving picture. A stylised 'pseudo-swastika' daubed on the wall, with the slogan 'XR Youth' alongside it. We've seen this kind of thing before. How long before those to be denounced as deniers are dragged from their homes and subjected to public beatings? //
https://www.twitter.com/RSylvesterTimes/status/1129671512259276800

May 18, 2019 at 2:21 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Today's letter from Michael Gove celebrates The Times campaign
"Air pollution is the gravest environmental threat to human health we face today and serious action is required.
... Burning coal and wood is the single biggest source of PM2.5 emissions, which cause the greatest harm to health.
( That's why his gov makes us pay Drlax £789m pa subsidy for burning WOOD )
This action is not a distraction from urgent action in other "
screenshot

May 18, 2019 at 2:59 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

The report starkly sets out the dangerous impact air pollution is currently having on our nation’s health. Each year in the UK, around 40,000 deaths are attributable to exposure to outdoor air pollution which plays a role in many of the major health challenges of our day. It has been linked to cancer, asthma, stroke and heart disease, diabetes, obesity, and changes linked to dementia. The health problems resulting from exposure to air pollution have a high cost to people who suffer from illness and premature death, to our health services and to business. In the UK, these costs add up to more than £20 billion every year.

Royal College of Physicians

May 18, 2019 at 4:40 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

Air pollution both inside and out is an interesting thing. I'm not entirely convinced that things are worse now than they have been in the past for the advanced countries at least. I'd be very surprised if a modern gas or electrically heated home had more pollution than a solid fuel, be that coal, wood, peat or cow dung on an open fire in a possibly drafty house. The chimney was invented in the 12th century and not standard across the whole of the UK until the 20th.


Since the Clean Air Acts has air quality in cities deteriorated significantly? Anyone of my generation, born before the accession of the current monarch will remember city buildings being transformed by the removal of 100 years worth of soot.

I read years ago that lead from the Roman period can be detected in Greenland ice, and Egyptian mummies have teeth ground down by sand in their food and you have to think that saharan dust in the atmosphere is nothing new, so there's a long history of pollution. Today's situation isn't really out of the ordinary for city dwellers.

May 18, 2019 at 5:45 PM | Unregistered CommenterStill In The Dark

The RCP 40K figure is bogus FakeNews
You can read further up the thread I already discussed it

The first point is raw death figs are by definition FakeNews if they concern very old people.. and fail to mention that important context.
It makes a world of difference if it impacts people at 90 year old reducing their lifespan by a few days vs 8 years old losing 80 years of life
The NHS knows damn well not to put too much effort into saving a few days off life of geriatrics.

The correct scientific term would be QALDs Life Days Lost

As I mentioned up the thread The top statistician Spiegehalter took apart the RCP stat

May 19, 2019 at 3:48 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

PC

there are rather more people whose untimely demise can be directly attributed to medical mistakes than "air pollution" - in fact it's recorded at rather too many inquests every year.

Perhaps the patient avoiders / clinically incompetent bureaucrats in public 'elf could investigate how to reduce the thousands of deaths a year from blundering medics?

May 19, 2019 at 5:01 PM | Registered Commentertomo

The University of Brighton's expert Tony Frew
called he RCP's 40K figure a "zombie statistic"
audio

May 20, 2019 at 11:01 AM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Spiegehalte is unhappy with this way of communicating the risk, not with the accuracy of the figures.

The correct scientific term would be QALDs Life Days Lost

This number (340,000 for particulates) is in the report, however as Spiegehalte notes:

None of these numbers are the ‘correct’ way of summarising the impact of a chronic hazard that tends to affect people who already have an illness, and the main conclusion is that many more than 29,000 [for particulates only] individuals are affected.

Medical errors? The Lancet burden of disease study reported these accounted for 142,000 deaths worldwide.

So we must be doing really badly.

May 20, 2019 at 3:12 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

I knew PC woudn't bother to actually read all what Spiegelhalter wrote
, bbut rather look to cherrypick a line.

David Spiegelhalter's last line is

In addition, the situation in the UK is not what we would usually think of as a ‘crisis’
. It can still be good to seek improvements in air quality,
but only provided these are based on a careful analysis of the costs per life-year saved,

ie "Life-years" as per the "life days" metric I mentioned

May 20, 2019 at 3:27 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Lovely straw man there Stew. The 40,000 stat comes from the RCP, and was publicised by Greenpeace, the word 'crisis' comes from UN special rapponteur Baskut Tuncak, who points out that most air quality zones in the UK breach legal limits and the government has twice had its plans to tackle the issue declared illegal by the courts.

I repeat, he does not regard the number as bogus; he takes issue with whether it is the best way of communicating the risk, and notes the high uncertainty. But that cuts both ways, the error bars mean the actual number for premature death from particulates alone could be as high as 60,000, implying a combined total from particulates and Nox of over 80,000.

May 20, 2019 at 7:41 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

It wasn't a straw man at all
I quoted the last and most important line of the report
You seek to dismiss it .. but I don't need to argue any further on that


The different 40K stats are flaky as heck
seemingly magic PR numbers just like All the the 97%..s

There are no 40,000 bodies/year with 40,000 death certificates per year
There just no air pollution bodies
.. There is a theory that air particles affect all our lungs and knock days off ALL our lives
off 60 million people in the UK
.. and that is what Chris Frew talks about in video which you still have not addressed
..Will you address that ?

Frew clearly does regard the 40K stat as bogus
The respiratory activists simply were concerned about their patients
but had no bodies to show
so someone came up a way of collecting all the lost life days thru 60 million people
and say that that is equivalent to 40,000 actual deaths
=====================================

... "UN special rapponteur Baskut Tuncak,
who points out that most air quality zones in the UK breach legal limits"

AFAIK No they don't, some monitoring stations within the zones breach the limits ..not the whole zone

AFAIK the UN legal limits are pretty arbitrary that's why you get an OMG headline
..but no bodies

Spiegelhalter is a statistician so he criticises the methodology used to get the 40K

Frew is different ..He's the respiratory expert
..that's why he criticises it from a different angle.

Bottomline if you have a population breathing really dirty air like cos of indoor wood fires
then you do get more respiratory cases and some people dying earlier than expected.

And I believe it's possible that happens to us in a more minor way cos we are breathing far less particles

The bottomline is that those women in Africa /Asian who are cooking over open fires indoors are the ones with the most suffering and where the most effort is needed
not somebody in my village or someone living in London where the streets where the air will continue to get cleaner without big interference from Sadiq.

Money spent will save life years lost, but the life years saved per £ in the UK is low
compared to India/Africa..that is what Spiegelhalter is saying

I have seen myself in India when I lived in Shillong, Megalaya tribal area and the government incentivised a switch to cooking with gas bottles.
Less cooking pollution and less cutting down of forest.

May 20, 2019 at 9:57 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

So John Hopkins Medicine is a less authoritative resource of medical information than "The Lancet"?

As far as the Lancet report is concerned - It's almost like Hans Rosling never existed.

Assessing epidemiological convergence across countries depends on whether an absolute or relative measure of inequality is used.

- caused my political BS detector to bleep - (Epidemiology + clinical statistics is something I was trained in a lifetime ago)

The changing, loaded language with ratcheting hyperbole wrt to the air pollution issue as presented by activists (who include the authors of the RCP piece) is dishonest and reprehensible (and quite possibly counter productive). Where cause and effect can be unequivocally linked the stats should be able to demonstrate that in a simple fashion - that is not the case.

Volume + vehemence are not a substitute for arithmetic. 93 instances of "model" and 6 instances of "validation" seems to hint at the uncertainty in the Lancet mortality work linked.... It's not like the reputation of The Lancet hasn't taken a bit of a hammering recently.

May 20, 2019 at 10:22 PM | Registered Commentertomo

So John Hopkins Medicine is a less authoritative resource of medical information than "The Lancet"?

Well, I was hoping you might be able to substantiate the 'Look a squirrel!' claim that there are more than 40,000 deaths annually from medical errors in the UK. Not sure a US based study (completely different systems, reporting etc, etc.) cuts it.

Plus, that study has been widely discredited. It examined hospital deaths only and concluded 251,000 deaths out of a total of 715,000 were due to medical error. That's 35% of inpatient mortality. You claim expertise in this area, do you regard that number as even remotely plausible?

Or did you just parrot it because (like the equally false Obama/Kenya claim) it confirmed your prejudices?

These stories all refer to an article last week in BMJ by Martin A Makary and Michael Daniel entitled “Medical error—the third leading cause of death in the US,” which claims that over 251,000 people die in hospitals as a result of medical errors. Given that, according to the CDC, only 715,000 of those deaths occur in hospitals, if Makary and Daniel’s numbers are to be believed, some 35% of inpatient deaths are due to medical errors. That’s just one reason why there are a lot of problems with this article, but there are even more problems with how the results have been reported in the press and the recommendations made by the authors.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-medical-errors-really-the-third-most-common-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s/

there are rather more people whose untimely demise can be directly attributed to medical mistakes than "air pollution

Fake noos, folks.

May 20, 2019 at 11:00 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

I didn't say 40K UK deaths d/t medical mistakes - so as usual GFY.

I cannot show you the numbers not killed by air pollution in the UK any more than you can show me those that are killedby air pollution. There are chronic and systemic problems with the ways categorisations and pathology results are reported plus further issues with the methodology deployed to generate the numbers which are then linguistically tortured to suit political purpose.

Did you read that blockquote copy before you pasted it? Do you think it actually makes any sense? Rather too much in the world of medical statistics is wonky and innumeracy in the medical profession is acknowledged as a problem in the BMJ and an assortment of American medical journals...

Surveys do hint that if you used the wider "lost quality life days" metric the medical mistake numbers are not trivial - go look for yourself. Then of course - why are the people in hospital in the first place? - and what metrics are applied to decide what constitutes a mistake?

There has been and continues to be quite a debate about the efficacy of medical intervention inside the medical profession - nothing to do with me... Some of the numbers are curious (embarrassing even) and hint that a careful re-factoring of some medical practice might be beneficial.

As for Obamah ... well - I never disputed that he was born in Hawaii - I said he was happy to not correct the impression in some quarters that he was Barack "from Kenya" and not Barry "from Honolulu" - for 10 years... Probably the least of his problems at the moment to be fair.

May 21, 2019 at 12:20 AM | Unregistered Commentertomo

I didn't say 40K UK deaths d/t medical mistakes.

Well, that is the number being discussed for air pollution so when you <did write there are rather more people whose untimely demise can be directly attributed to medical mistakes than "air pollution" - it is kinda implied.

Just a fake news squirrel; the only evidence you have is a discredited study from the US, which came up with a number wildy at odds with the global conclusions from the Lancet.

May 21, 2019 at 9:21 AM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

Formal response to the John Hopkins study, extract

...the authors of the article do not provide any sort of formal methodology. Their estimate seems to rely on extrapolating preventable death rates from those reported in other studies. They then place the estimate derived from these heterogeneous studies in a “ranking” of causes of death in the US to make their argument that it is the third leading cause. These two steps are both precarious. The four studies on which they appear to base their estimate on use different methodologies and wildly varying definitions that Makary and Daniel collapse into their vividly-titled construct of “preventable lethal adverse event”. It is not clear how the “point estimates” they derive were calculated, but it is notable that the denominators across the studies are not comparable and no confidence intervals are reported.

The authors call for death certificates to include an extra field asking whether a preventable complication stemming from the patient’s medical care contributed to the death. The practical details of how this might be achieved are scant. Causes listed on death certificates already represent educated guesses much of the time, as not many patients die of diagnoses supported by gold standard tests during life (or autopsy results after death[3]) Moreover, the doctor who pronounces death (and thus fills out the death certificate) may be ill-placed to know whether the patient experienced a preventable complication in care. But, suppose we sidestepped these practical issues (and put aside questions of resources) to implement a system whereby at least two clinicians not based at the hospital where death occurred undertake an independent medical record review and then discuss the case in order to reach consensus about whether or not medical error had likely contributed to death.

As it turns out, this approach has been implemented in research settings on at least three occasions.[4-6] In all of these studies, the authors sampled deaths from multiple institutions and asked trained reviewers to look over the cases to identify possible quality of care problems and to make a judgment about the preventability of death. In all three studies, reviewers estimated that around 3% to 5% of deaths were ‘probably preventable’ (a greater than 50% chance that optimal care would have prevented death). The largest and most recent of these studies[5] reported that trained medical reviewers judged 3.6% of deaths to have at least a 50% probability of avoidability. Applying this rate of preventability to the total number of hospital deaths in the US each year produces an estimate of about 25,200 deaths annually that are potentially avoidable among hospitalized patients in the US—roughly 10-fold lower than the estimate advanced by Makary and Daniel.

Flaky study, fake news.

May 21, 2019 at 9:46 AM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

I know that idea came up in US news articles a few years ago
: that medical errors kill millions
..but it's ridiculous for a start
It's just media narrative stuff.
..that is easily hyped by the vast numbers of Alternative medicine industry who hate real doctors

Re Medical errors deaths
The Hopkins study : They made a scary headline "#3 killer"

Yeh that's cos there are so many different causes of death, the number #4 killer doesn't kill many people
..and anyway the count of medical deaths is BS
sure people die in hospital, but it's not going to be 50% or 30% or something

Some debunks
https://www.physiciansweekly.com/the-twisting-of-medical-error-stats-from-bmj-paper-continues/
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-medical-errors-really-the-third-most-common-cause-of-death-in-the-u-s/

=========================================================

Is the Medical Error death count bigger than the Air Pollution Death count ?
Em , it doesn't matter cos raw deaths is a BS metric..we all die ..death rate is 100%
So it's no use saying the medical error count is bigger than the pollution death count
There is no real pollution count ..cos it doesn't say that on their death certificate
It does say cardiovascular death on death certificates,..and the argument is that pollution caused that death to be brought forward 2 years

I said "The correct scientific term would be QALDs Life Days Lost" (Quality Adjusted Life Days)

Phil said "This number (340,000 for particulates) is in the report,"
NOPE , Phil where does it say that stat is QUALITY ADJUSTED ?

Spiegelhalter looks at the life years lost count in the RCP report of 340,000 years
and says that's like 190,000 cardiovascular deaths being brought forward 2 years.
Yes I can believe something like that and that better care could well into that and even reduce it to 1 month lost

A near dead cardiovascular patients life year is NOT a QUALITY life year

Note that most people in hospital are old and perhaps nearly dead
so the life years of people who dies from medical errors is often not a QUALITY life year
However a fair proportion of those that die are young and fairly healthy .. so that would bump up a QALY count
----------------

Compare this stuff to other raw deaths
If you look at the Manchester terrorist attack
..a lot of those kids might be expected to live 80 QUALITY years more
.. not just 2 poor quality years at the end of their life span like near dead cardiovascular patients

May 21, 2019 at 11:16 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Times Tues 14 May
Gove talks tough: he will drivers who leave tgeir engines idling

Actually councils can already, but don't bother

Westminster does bother but last year only 20 fines.
they are called for £1000+ fine

May 22, 2019 at 3:46 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

Next page more Gove PR,
Gove steps up scheme to cut food waste.

May 22, 2019 at 3:52 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

pg6 PR for Surfers against sewage as they name the 10 top litter brands

Next : "Daimler plans to be carbon neutral bty 2039"
then the idling story continues

May 22, 2019 at 3:54 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen

pg21 The Times biggest eco-warrior Rachel Sylvester writes a full page article saying the Tories need to "suppress its sceptical wing"

... that's Nobel cause fallacy

May 22, 2019 at 4:12 PM | Registered Commenterstewgreen