SandyS on Apr 24, 2016 at 7:14 PM
"I sincerely hope that if the UK leaves the EU you get the democracy you so desire ..."

Don't you want Democracy or any chance of choosing your destiny?

Plans have been drawn up for a full-blown 'United States of Europe' and Britain will have little say, warns top Tory minister
* Commons leader Chris Grayling said EU figures were already signed up
* The documents speaks of 'concrete' plans to 'deepen integration'
* It talks about 'more, not less Europe' was needed to meet challenges
Plans have been drawn up for a full-blown United States of Europe over which Britain will have 'very little say', a Cabinet minister warned today.

The Prime Minister has promised that, as a result of his referendum reforms, Britain will not be sucked into an EU superstate.

But Chris Grayling, the leader of the Commons, pointed to a document signed last September in Rome by the speakers of the national parliaments in Germany, France, Italy and Luxembourg.

It says that 'concrete proposals' to deepen EU integration towards a 'federal union of states' will be drawn up at a meeting in Luxembourg next month.

The joint declaration states: 'We are convinced that new impetus must be given to European integration. We believe that more, not less, Europe is needed to respond to the challenges we face.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3556298/Plans-drawn-blown-United-States-Europe-Britain-little-say-warns-Tory-minister.html

It looks like a Remain vote will leave us in a worse position than being a dependency, especially with the anger, on the Continent, with Cameron's ridiculous renegotiations.

If the Remainians said they wanted to be governed by unelected bureaucrats, at least they would be honest!

At least a Brexit will give us a chance.

Alan Kendall on Apr 25, 2016 at 11:57 AM
"what even those in the cemeteries"

Brilliant!

SandyS on Apr 25, 2016 at 11:21 AM
"I'd love democracy and freedom, what Scot doesn't? I'm just not sure that Brexit will deliver it ..."

It won't, on its own, but what are you suggesting, that we Remain?

The report mentioned in my 'Apr 24, 2016 at 8:53 PM' post highlights just how committed the Continental politicians are to 'Ever Closer Union'. Cameron's idea that we can reform the EU, when his renegotiations delivered nothing of substance, is laughable. I have spoken to several on the Continent over the years and they are totally committed, to the point where they cannot see our point of view. They look inward, towards each other, not outwards to the rest of the world, like we do. It is a different world. We can trade with them but we will never have a common view without much disharmony.

If that is what you want, with the near certainty of Britain being in the Euro, in Schengen, the evolving sharing out of Germany's new illiterate visitors, the creation of a Euro-coastguard, the incessant meddling (as confessed by Juncker), the free market in goods but not in services, the threat of TTIP, the anti-British emphasis of everything EU, the consequences of a customs union, the likelihood of London's financial market being continually attacked and the inevitable loss of needing our own parliament, the stupidity of Whitehall implementing EU directives and the breakup of England (to be replaced by regions), when we are seeing the signs of revolution by EU citizens, go for it.

The Euro-elites are even more disconnected from their 'common man' than ours. There are reports that in Sicily the Mafia have shot an immigrant trying to muscle in on their business. With the other events that have happened, it another sign that law and order are not what it was.

However, if we (can) leave, that is, a successful Brexit, at least we will have some say in our future.

Luckily, just before Dunkirk, our leaders didn't say, 'It does look rather risky, and there is no certainty that this plan will deliver a victory'. There was no certainty, but it was (one of the many) turning points in the war and, without it, victory would have been impossible.

If you want to Remain, what do you expect will happen?

With a deluge of EU directives swamping us if we Remain, the status quo will not continue.

Alan Kendall on Apr 25, 2016 at 1:24 PM
"So we just missed playing the immigrant/ race card a few days ago ..."

So why are you raising the issue?

But, as you have raised it, how did thousands of young girls get raped while the Police and Social Services stood by and did nothing, while accepting salary and pension contributions from taxpayers? The Police even arrested a parent who tried to point out their misapplied zeal of arresting their young daughter! I think the PC agenda, backed up by unchangeable EU law had a hand, the ratchet effect. And it's not just a British problem, it is occurring across the EU: try Cologne railway station or Malmo, nearly anywhere! Luckily we are outside Schengen, for now! Try Googling "Three Stages of Jihad" and watch the video: an interesting History lesson.

"what has the EU (with its hoards of johnny foreigners) also imposed upon us against our combined will?"
What planet are you living on? There's Windmill Mania, Green taxes, the inability of expelling very unpleasant foreigners, taking control over large parts of our industry and Ministers finding they can often do little because there is inevitably an EU law against it, to name just a few!

Even May, a Remainer, can't sort out what is to be done, given that it isn't certain that we can leave the European Convention on Human Rights and stay in the EU. They are all at sixes and sevens:
Britain should leave European Convention on Human Rights but not EU, says Theresa May
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/25/eu-referendum-uk-eu-migration-free-for-all-michael-gove-brexit

I do notice that you have offered no suggestions to my questions, so are you quite relaxed Britain becoming something even less than a colony:
Britain in danger of becoming a colony of EU – Owen Paterson
http://tapnewswire.com/2016/04/britain-in-danger-of-becoming-a-colony-of-eu-owen-paterson

Steve Richards on Apr 25, 2016 at 2:39 PM
"It seems strange that some here suggest that the additional layer of government of the EU, is ok, and preferable. And it does not matter that is is not democratic because we already have quasi-appointed positions in the UK system!"

Steve, in addition, it is the 'additional layer of government of the EU' that makes the 'quasi-appointed positions in the UK system' even more resistant to change than they might have been.

Alan Kendall on Apr 25, 2016 at 3:29 PM

"But now you've gone and blotted your copybook."
So I have! But so has Theresa May. She wants to leave the European Convention on Human Rights but stay in the EU, because it will protect us against terrorists:
Theresa May admits Britain would flourish OUTSIDE the EU but says we should stay in the Brussels club to protect us against terrorists
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3557586/Theresa-admits-Britain-flourish-OUTSIDE-EU-says-stay-Brussels-club-protect-against-terrorists.html

Except that EU security does appear to be a lot worse than ours!

"contentious arena"
Are we not allowed to enter any 'contentious arena'? Your History lessons must have been a joy to behold! :) If it is a 'safe space' that you are looking for, it would be better to view that video I suggested at 2:40 PM, though that is contentious History as well.

"when it was us against Europe"
A good many Europeans fought on the Allies side, including Poles in the RAF and French in the Resistance. There were a few Britons on the wrong side as well.

"...little Englander like messages from the Leave campaigns ..."
There were plenty of warnings of what was to come in the 1930's (another contentious arena), and they were not heeded for some time. So, while not all warnings come to pass, they should be carefully considered, not discarded without thought. Consider what it would have been like, being one of those women abused in Cologne railway station. Not being attacked and eventually escaping, but how your government reacted:
Mayor says women should have code of conduct to prevent future assault
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mayor-of-cologne-says-women-should-have-code-of-conduct-to-prevent-future-assault-a6798186.html

Not only were the suggestions offensive to any independent woman, they would be impractical and ineffective. This is the mentality of the politics there: unable to display any common sense. We have similar occurrences, but in both cases, it is the overarching, remote, unworldly hand of Brussels that stultifies any common sense action. No wonder the protests against the Establishment are growing.

"You see UK-rest of Europe in terms of us and them"
I see Continental Europe fanatically welded to 'Ever Closer Union', even though it has brought financial hardship and social unrest, while I and most of Britain think that policy will destroy much of what we value about Europe. I would still like be able to go on holiday there and for Britain to trade with Europe, but not meddle in each others political affairs.

" Continent shut off by gales"
A perfectly valid view, from Dover. :)

You still haven't even hinted whether you are relaxed about Britain becoming something even less than a colony, or whether you would prefer something different.