Thursday
Jul142011
by 
Bishop Hill
Bishop Hill Germany goes for coal
Jul 14, 2011 Energy: coal Greens As most readers will know, Germany has decided to phase out its nuclear power programme, a move welcomed by most environmentalists.
There's a sting in the tail for them though:
The German government wants to encourage the construction of new coal and gas power plants with millions of euros from a fund for promoting clean energy and combating climate change.
Reader Comments (41)
What a useful clue for the UK government to follow!
The world has gone starkers! In Australia (where the price of steaming coal - good clean coal with low sulphur - is a quarter the price of that in Germany, which i high in sulphur) our government (and opposition, for that matter) are proposing to pay for coal-fired stations to close down.
Is this a spark of that famous old German genius? Wish I could see better. Would someone turn the lights on so we can see what they're doing?... I SAID, WOULD SOMEONE TURN THE BLOODY LIGHTS ON!!!!
Actually, if we're talking about the possibility of Germany groupthinking its way to an utter national disaster from which it will take them decades to recover, it wouldn't exactly be the first time they've done this, would it?
For those of you who are into coal-fired power station pornography, here is a starter pack:
http://tinyurl.com/6dxdjpt
http://tinyurl.com/6cgy25v
Phwooor!
Re: Brownedoff 09.51
Probably worth checking your links before you post. The first was to a turbine specifically designed for a nuclear plant (PWR - Pressurised Water reactor was a bit of a clue). The inlet steam conditions are totally different from any modern coal-fired plant such as the second link to an "ultra-supercritical" USC turbine.
(Mind you, what USC means is beyond me. Once you get above critical temperature (374 deg C, IIRC) you have only the supercritical phase: no liquid water, no steam just a supercritical fluid.)
Alan Bates, Senior Engineer at a nuclear power station (retired).
Mr Englishman, Sir
Just noticed - no need for Harry any more?
Also, when I come into this site it soon drags me down to the Google Earth image several posts previously. I've experienced this before - anyone know what's going in? Rather irritating to have to go up half the current list of posts.
Dangerous cafeine shortage noticed.
Please ignore, delete, exterminate without trace the last post (11.03).
Jul 14, 2011 at 10:59 AM | Alan Bates
OK, thank you.
Freezing to death and starving is like hanging - it focuses the mind.
"Now that nuclear power is to be phased out by 2022, the fund will pay for research into reducing carbon dioxide emissions from buildings, developing renewable energy sources and storage technologies for them."
Does this mean they'll be spending vast sums on CCS?
DaveS: "Does this mean they'll be spending vast sums on CCS?"
I read the first part of the subject paragraph as promoting more efficiency -- along the lines of increasing insulation, reducing draughts, etc., and no doubt the eradication of all incandescent bulbs. The second part is probably about fostering technologies such as wind and solar which are inherently intermittent, trying to make them more useful by storing the energy produced so as to provide a [more] reliable source. Not CCS.
I travelled through Germany a month ago - by train from Frankfurt to Konstanz, through the Black Forest. I was stuck by wind turbines (stationary) on hilltops and PV panels on rooftops where I'm sure there would be shade for half the day in winter (when they weren't covered by snow). Merkel had just announced the nuclear phase-out after losing an election in a lander to the Greens in the wake of Fukushima. The same event had turned Monbiot and Lynas into nuclear advocates. I concluded then that Germany was suffering a collective delusion, and this decision simply confirms it.
Burning coal to generate electricity..! Now, THERE'S an idea....
Is this Germany's official announcement that the catastrophic warming scam is no longer operative and some new scare (perhaps of the Chinese producing global cooling) to promote government parasitism is operative.
Bish, in another post your where asking about fuel costs here in the UK and I pointed to the fuel poverty figures, looks like there getting much worst (30% imcrease in energy probably helps) and my guess is by next winter they will be much worse, you could even be looking at 1/4 of the UK pop. in fuel poverty if they keep pushing prices up by 30% :-
http://news.google.co.uk/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=uk&ncl=dFPj-N4axV8I7PM48x4TDQbsCAfOM&topic=b
Aynsley, here in Italy, there was a referendum which, among other things, invited the Italians to continue their ban on nuclear power The original was imposed following Chernobyl, and this followed Fukushima.
Afterwards, I checked the Comune noticeboard for the results. Rejection of nukes was confirmed by a vote of about 97%. Does anyone else recall the late, great Michael Bentine reporting the results of the 1967 general election in the Soviet Union? Apologies if my date is a year or two out.
Mind you, I am sure the referendum result was accurate, but I doubt if the debate beforehand was very honest.
I am still laughing, although no longer rolling on the floor. Absolutely delicious!
I suppose the Germans have found a way to make Black Coal Green.
Suggestion to Josh: German politician making coal green by spray painting it. "Jawohl! Ve can burn der green coal!"
'The Economics Ministry spokeswoman said that in any event, that Germany’s goal to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 40 percent by 2020, would not be damaged by the new initiative.'
This has to be given to the UK treasury, keep coal and gas still achieve government targets and stop wasting money on inefficient green technology, what a novel idea!
Don Pablo,
My understanding is that these power stations are to use lignite, which is a soft brown coal. It's really only halfway to becoming coal, so just a change of hue to make it green.
I have an idea they will scrub the flue gases but CCS will be a phase 2 development.
I applaud the Germany governments kick to the groin of Greenpeace. All other government should act the same way:
"Don't want nuclear? Ok. We'll burn the dirtiest fuel imaginable"
It would only be better if they announced wood fired power plants. Lets cut down those forests!"
You've got to laugh!
No, really, you have to, don't you?
"Ve can burn der green coal!" - this isn't as daft as it sounds, just change the spelling to Kohl and there you have it - a green fuel.
Poland dashes for coal too !!!
http://notrickszone.com/2011/07/14/poland-blocks-europe-madness/
"a fund for promoting clean energy and combating climate change"
Follow the money. It would be nice to know more about that fund, though - presumably it's predicated on future taxation (i.e. bottomless)?
Huhne, Farage and some greenie on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b012frwh
This is politics, right? Perhaps the plan is to burn the coal, to generate the electricity, to separate the isotopes, to fuse the nuclei, to run the huge fans, that drive the wind turbines, to create the clean power, that saves the small polar bears. How could this not prove compelling to the electorate?
How on earth did they get a grant to build a coal fired power station from a fund that is supposed to be for the promotion of clean energy? What did they do, lie on the application form and say that they were going to build solar powered windmills?
Are we sure this isn't a mistranslation? IIRC the German word for coal is die Kohle and the German for cabbages is die Kohl.
Are they planning to build cabbage-fired power stations perchance?
ZT
Ever hear of Rube Goldberg? Rube Motion
He would be proud to call you his child.
Plagiarism! Not only that, but it's DER Kohl, not die Kohl, justice4rinka!
The last German hard coal mine will shut down (according to current plans) in 2016.
But they are investing heavily in Lignite. Not the Guvmint. Industry. Lignite is an inferior, dirty fuel.
But it does work.
Unlike some scams I could name.
Jul 14, 2011 at 6:33 PM | Justice4Rinka
That would placate the Greens, I guess.
Just as we shut down our coal fired plant and go for nuclear, the Germans do the opposite and lignite as well!!!!
Cue manic [deeply ironic] laughter.
Scrub that for a game of soldiers!
After-all, according to Franny and the girls, it is the; "AGE OF STUPID!"
Jazznick: 'Poland dashes for coal too !!!'
Britain had the Dash to Gas - Germany is having the Stroll to Coal!
Interesting that this is lignite - the least efficient! Also interesting is that the EU policy was to phase out subsidies to German coal mining in 2012. What a coincidence! (These used to run at DM8 billion pa - don't know post €).
Lignite is not dirty, in fact regarding Sulfur content, it is usually the cleanest. It's also not inefficient - it can be just as efficient like any other coal.
The only problem with lignite is that it has low calorific value (high moisture content) - it's only economic to use it locally.
Edim, The high moisture content is the problem, as too much of the available heat disappears in the latent heat of evaporation, rather than raising steam in the boiler. This can be minimised with drying, but without this the brown coal stations in Victoria only used to achieve around 25% efficiency, compared with close to 40% with best practice pcf (or close to 50% with hypersupercritical pcf - the only one of which I know is in China). You are correct - the sulphur content varies, but my understanding is that German lignite is generally high.
Clarification: I assume that the boiler efficiency is calculated on a NCV basis. Then, the coal rank (moisture content) has no direct impact on efficiency. If efficiency is calculated on a GCV basis (USA?), then of course the moisture content has an impact on efficiency.
Edim,
Thanks for the clarification.
One Indian state's extra (80-100GW) planned coal powered stations more tha the UK's ENTIRE electrity generation
An impecable source (The Guardian)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/14/india-coal-rush
"A single Indian state is to build a new fleet of coal-power stations that could make it one of the world's top 20 emitters of carbon emissions – on a par with countries such as Spain or Poland.
In an echo of the Chinese economy in the 1990s which depended on the exploitation of vast reserves of coal, India last year approved plans for 173 coal-fired power stations expected to provide an extra 80-100 gigawatts (GW) of electricity capacity within a few years. Many are expected to be fuelled by cheap coal imported from Australia, Indonesia and southern Africa, but applications to mine more than 600m tonnes of coal in India have been lodged."
You can now follow me on 'twitter'
https://twitter.com/#!/Realclim8gate
Coal is back! I predicted it 3 years ago. Germany has large Braunkohle (lignite) reserves. I wonder if Germany is going to bring back hard coal too.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/29/AR2007072901078.html
http://people.whitman.edu/~storchkh/coal.pdf